UFO's and extra-terrestrial life

[Lixma]

Nope, you still missed the point.



We agree there are perfectly natural explanations available to us to help explain these various religious phenomena, yes?

OK.

And we agree that even if we currently do not have a rigorous scientific explanation of these phenomena there is no justification for invoking the supernatural to help explain them. Yes?

OK.

So why, then, when it comes to the subject of UFOs are you eager to discard these natural explanations in favour of the most fantastic explanation? i.e. Aliens from Outer Space.

Try this out. Here's an archetypical UFO encounter I just made up. We'll let Bob describe his experience....

I was flying my P-51 at 22,000 feet at 8:40am over Toulouse, France 1944. All of a sudden I saw three silvery objects at co-altitude, at my two o'clock, roughly a mile away. They seemed to be in formation. They stayed that way for perhaps a minute or so and so I decided to get closer and investigate. However as soon as I moved to intercept the three objects shot off at an incredible speed and I didn't see them again.

How to explain this? Well there are very many possible natural explanations for what happened. Tiredness, anxiety, vertigo, canopy reflections, hallucinations, birds, atmospheric effects, oxygen starvation, other aircraft.

But let us imagine that none of these explanations hold water, and we find that we simply do not have any explanation at all for what Bob saw. Our conclusion is therefore : "We don't know". Not "Aliens"

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by Lixma

How to explain this? Well there are very many possible natural explanations for what happened. Tiredness, anxiety, vertigo, canopy reflections, hallucinations, birds, atmospheric effects, oxygen starvation, other aircraft.

But let us imagine that none of these explanations hold water, and we find that we simply do not have any explanation at all for what Bob saw. Our conclusion is therefore : "We don't know". Not "Aliens"

if none hold water, then yes, the "We don't know" holds true and captures the tag: Unidentified Flying Object... and "not of this world" is a natural extrapolation.

Crikey some of the artifacts dug up from some archeological sites have distinct shape to modern aircraft... but these are thousands of years old.
wall drawings... same thing - fantastically shaped beings, and some of which have uncanny similarity to modern experiments with plasma - others? who knows.
The Muhahubtra (sp) with its references to flying machines


so, go figure


Oh, and "bending space"... faster than light travel

[Lixma]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

"not of this world" is a natural extrapolation.

It's only a valid extrapolation if you have some actual evidence to demonstrate that something is not of this world. Meteorites* are 'not of this world'; but we can collect them, hold them in our hands and scrutinise them to see whether the hypothesis that they are 'not of this world' holds any water.

The same cannot be said of UFOs. Over half a century of testimony and there is still not one ATOM of tangible proof to suggest that this phenomena is 'not of this world'.

Crikey some of the artifacts dug up from some archeological sites have distinct shape to modern aircraft... but these are thousands of years old.

so, go figure

Von Daniken alert!!!! All hands on deck!!! "Put down that book and never open it again!"

Countdown to Face on Mars!

Oh, and "bending space"... faster than light travel

* long considered super-natural events.

[Oldschool61]

Originally Posted by Lixma

The same cannot be said of UFOs. Over half a century of testimony and there is still not one ATOM of tangible proof to suggest that this phenomena is 'not of this world'.



Von Daniken alert!!!! All hands on deck!!! "Put down that book and never open it again!"

Countdown to Face on Mars!








* long considered super-natural events.

Actually you have photographic evidence as well as radar so its not completely a blind faith thing like religion. Your method of saying one individual saw swamp gas holds only when its one individual. What about mass sightings like the phoenix lights or the UFO's over Washington DC in 1952.

[Lixma]

Originally Posted by Oldschool61

Actually you have photographic evidence as well as radar so its not completely a blind faith thing like religion.

Yes we have photographs. Yes we have radar blips.

Great, but now you need to explain how you get from these photographs, blips and sightings to 'extra terrestrials'.

What about mass sightings like the phoenix lights or the UFO's over Washington DC in 1952.

What about them?

Watch where we go wrong here.....

Phoenix lights (unidentified lights in the sky) = Extra terrestrials.

UFOs over Washington (unidentified objects in sky) = Extra terrestrials.

See the yawning gap in the reasoning there? We've made a completely un-warranted leap from something being unidentified to being 'extra terrestrial'.

Before claiming something is extra terrestrial you need to point to evidence of it being extra terrestrial and not just difficult to explain.

[Oldschool61]

Originally Posted by Lixma

Yes we have photographs. Yes we have radar blips.

Great, but now you need to explain how you get from these photographs, blips and sightings to 'extra terrestrials'.



What about them?

Watch where we go wrong here.....

Phoenix lights (unidentified lights in the sky) = Extra terrestrials.

UFOs over Washington (unidentified objects in sky) = Extra terrestrials.

See the yawning gap in the reasoning there? We've made a completely un-warranted leap from something being unidentified to being 'extra terrestrial'.

Before claiming something is extra terrestrial you need to point to evidence of it being extra terrestrial and not just difficult to explain.

Its called process of elimination.

Is it a plane? No

Is it a bird? No

Does it look like anything man made? No

What else could it be?? Flying fish?
Do flying fish fly faster than our best fighter planes?
Do they have the ability to do manuevers that no know earth bound craft can perform??

try a process of elimination UFO doesnt mean ET but it caould well be. Do you really think we are alone in the universe?? There could be civilizations a million years more advanced then us. Look how far our primative species has progressed in the last 150 years. We have gone from horse and buggy to traveling into outer space in 150 years. what do you think we will be able to do in 100,000 years or a million years?

[Lixma]

Originally Posted by Oldschool61

Its called process of elimination.

Is it a plane? No

Is it a bird? No

Does it look like anything man made? No

What else could it be??

"We don't know" is the answer. But we could hypothesize....

Flying fish?
Do flying fish fly faster than our best fighter planes?

No they don't. So we can eliminate flying fish. Do you know why we can eliminate flying fish from our investigation? It's because we are familiar with flying fish; their characteristics and capabilities, that we can safely conclude that UFOs are unlikely to be flying fish.

Do they have the ability to do manuevers that no know earth bound craft can perform??

One question....Do Alien space ships have the ability to do these things? If so, please tell me how do you know this? Where did this information come from? How do you, or anyone, know what an Alien space ship is (or is not) capable of?

If you want to use a process of elimination then at the very least you need to have a basic understanding of the things you are offering up as candidates. We can eliminate flying fish because we have knowledge of them. But we cannot ever eliminate ETs from our inquiry because we don't know a single fact about them.

There could be civilizations a million years more advanced then us. Look how far our primative species has progressed in the last 150 years. We have gone from horse and buggy to traveling into outer space in 150 years. what do you think we will be able to do in 100,000 years or a million years?

Yes, yes and yes to all these things!

But the mere possibility does not constitute evidence. It's possible i'm talking to you from the middle of an asteroid, smoking cancer-free Marlboros while playing the harp....all this is possible. But it does not contstitute evidence that I am in fact doing all those things.

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by Lixma

It's only a valid extrapolation if you have some actual evidence to demonstrate that something is not of this world. Meteorites* are 'not of this world'; but we can collect them, hold them in our hands and scrutinise them to see whether the hypothesis that they are 'not of this world' holds any water.

well, you have to go back to your previous points of -

Originally Posted by Lixma

How to explain this? Well there are very many possible natural explanations for what happened. Tiredness, anxiety, vertigo, canopy reflections, hallucinations, birds, atmospheric effects, oxygen starvation, other aircraft.

But let us imagine that none of these explanations hold water, and we find that we simply do not have any explanation at all for what Bob saw. Our conclusion is therefore : "We don't know". Not "Aliens"

not holding water and to use the "logic" that everybody else is fond using, what does that leave? remember... if you have ruled out known possibilities and are left with an unknown; any unknown possibility can't be ruled out

[Lixma]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

remember... if you have ruled out known possibilities and are left with an unknown; any unknown possibility can't be ruled out

Sorry, can you elaborate or rephrase that, WR? I'm not sure what you mean.

[Lixma]

Couldn't resist this one.

Here's an enterprising chap who's tired of UFOs not being taken seriously so he's calling in the big guns....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4l4Az...eature=related

And he's pretty talented himself!

Prophet Yahweh has been blessed to resurrect the lost, ancient art of summoning UFOs and actual spaceships on command.

"Hold on, let me put it on standby, brother..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXuEw...eature=related