LIBIA italy question? or europe question?

[Heliocon]

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

If they really stick to providing the kind of assistance it was asked of them by the local population (ie, a no fly zone without any foreign troops on the ground) without making a mess of "collateral damage" (let's be honest and call it for what it is, dead civilians), then i guess it would be ok. But that's a big if.

In any case, the hypocrisy in the situation is very obvious: all the EU countries waited until the last batch of Lybian oil they had bought was shipped to them before they kicked off their operation. Our own prime minister comes from a party that had close ties to many Arab regimes (dating from a time that it wasn't really "agreeable" for many western countries to do so) and he still went ahead and granted access to the EU aircraft operating there, just like Sarkozy and Berlusconi were shaking Gaddafi's hand a few months ago but now want him gone...it's madness
Plus, i don't see anyone instituting any kind of international control zones in pro-western dictatorships like Bahrain, where mercenary police kills between 10 and 50 people every other day or so.

I'm very ambivalent about this. On one hand it's still a question of "what serves me right" that's presented as a freedom promoting operation through warfare. On the other one, at least this coalition had an invitation to operate there, a UN resolution to that effect and the reserved but still telling backing of the Arab league, which is much more than can be said for operations like Iraq. I just hope the locals can seize the situation and take matters into their own hands without the need for another prolonged war, which would be detrimental to everyone at this point in time.

This would of been long over if a week or two ago NATO had hit Libyan armour then before they organised and grabbed the oilports and their fuel for the vehicles. After that initial rebel push and then retreat which resulted in the loss of the oil ports, all we have seen is a relentless push towards Benghazi, it may be too little to late at this point since pro Ghadaffi troops are already fighting the rebels in the city and we are just preventing mechanised convoys / supplies reinforcements. Although it looks like France and the UK will step up their help for the rebels, US doesnt want to get dragged in though.

edit- apparently the jet was a rebel jet they sent up to try and intercept incoming bombers (according to CNN).

[Jaws2002]

Is pretty clear that many of you never been on the receiving end of ruthless dictators, or are too ingnorant to find out how it is.

I grew up in Romania during Ceausescu's regim (a good friend of Gadaffi) and i know all too well what those poor Libyans are going through.
I'm pissed the western powers let the mad man kill so many people and went in so late.
If this bombing they did untill now took place two weeks ago, that mad dog would be hanging in tree by now. They let him choke that country in blood.

Obama is the biggest pussy that ran USA. It took the coward three weeks since the start of the killings to make a bloody statement.
I see a lot of mention about former wars US was involved in. This is very different situation. This was a genuine revolution against a dictator, not the retarded intervention in Iraq.
Do you guys even read statements made by FREE Libyans? The whole country is against this mad dog. People are just too afraid to go out and show it.
I hope someone has some sense and they start going after the single target that can stop the blood shed: Gadaffi!!! You won't stop the killings if you shoot some troops that are kept in check by gunpoint by gadaffi's cronies.
You kill Gadafi, or at least show that you are seriously going after him and the war will be over in two days.


I see all this comanders and political leaders on the news saying that Gadaffi is not targeted. Are this guys retarded? Is this the message you want to send to this dog? They should remember him every day that "we are coming for you and we'll have you hanging at the end of a rope like Sadam. Maybe he'll be scared and run in exile.

[nearmiss]

Originally Posted by Jaws2002

Is pretty clear that many of you never been on the receiving end of ruthless dictators, or are too ingnorant to find out how it is.

I grew up in Romania during Ceausescu's regim (a good friend of Gadaffi) and i know all too well what those poor Libyans are going through.
I'm pissed the western powers let the mad man kill so many people and went in so late.
If this bombing they did untill now took place two weeks ago, that mad dog would be hanging in tree by now. They let him choke that country in blood.

Obama is the biggest pussy that ran USA. It took the coward three weeks since the start of the killings to make a bloody statement.
I see a lot of mention about former wars US was involved in. This is very different situation. This was a genuine revolution against a dictator, not the retarded intervention in Iraq.
Do you guys even read statements made by FREE Libyans? The whole country is against this mad dog. People are just too afraid to go out and show it.
I hope someone has some sense and they start going after the single target that can stop the blood shed: Gadaffi!!! You won't stop the killings if you shoot some troops that are kept in check by gunpoint by gadaffi's cronies.
You kill Gadafi, or at least show that you are seriously going after him and the war will be over in two days.


I see all this comanders and political leaders on the news saying that Gadaffi is not targeted. Are this guys retarded? Is this the message you want to send to this dog? They should remember him every day that "we are coming for you and we'll have you hanging at the end of a rope like Sadam. Maybe he'll be scared and run in exile.

Why do you speak so about Obama and the US. It is common knowledge that the Middle East, Eastern Europe, Western Europe, etc. think America is the great oppressor, yet they all want America to police the world.

Recently a radical from Croatia killed two American servicemen in Germany. Why? American soliders died in Croatia trying to stop the genocide and killing of the Croatian Muslims by the Serbian oppressors.

The news media turns things to suit their agenda, the radicals turn things to suit their agenda, and the poor people are misinformed and manipulated to think in those terms.

You know as well as I, no one respects America before or after trying to help. Everyone thinks America always has profit motive. Yet, Americans are burying their sons. Where are all the profits, when does that happen? What is the payback for the dead soldiers and billions of dollars spent to help ungrateful countries? More contempt and hatred of America and an empty wallet

The enemy is the same..radical jihadists.

The difference is most of Libya oil production is going to Western European countries. Western European countries will be forced to acquire more of their oil from Russia. It is not about freedom, it is promoted that way by the media. The Libyans will be just as oppressed by the Jihadists as they have been by Gadahfi. Sorry, it won't be any better. There will be no rule of "We the People" if Gadahfi is out of power. It will be organized radical jihadists who have planned and promoted the insurgency that take the role of oppressing the libyans.

YET, no one is thinking why the jihadists are pushing so hard to take Libya. After they took Egypt... they only got a broke country with no money or resources to promote their agenda. Now that is different with Libya. If the jihadists can get their hooks into a money tree like Libya and dedicate the resources to jihad just think of the havoc they can cause.

America should have stayed out of the Libyan conflict 100% and let the Western European countries with everything to lose see what they can do about Libya.

We will have to wait and see, but you can trust Americans will be hated regardless of the outcome. A new Jihadist Libyan government will pull their factions together to affirm their power and be more oppressive of the Libyan people than Gadahfi.

Sadly, it just looks like more of the same for the people of Libya.

Don't get me wrong... I'd love to be wrong and look forward to a democratic government ruled by "we the people".

[Jaws2002]

I'm not bashing the Americans. I'm pissed with the gutless persident.
That is not a position for an undecided academic. The president of United States has to be a man of action and a man that has an opinion, not someone that is waiting for the reaction of others, to make up his mind how to act.
I absolutely agree with you that something a lot more dangerous CAN come out of a Libya without Gadaffi.
But the question here is who you stand for. Thugs, dictators that are pretending they like you, or the people?
I'd say the people of Libya have the right to decide their fate, the regime is just too strong and too ruthless and they can't do it alone.
I can tell you that a lot of Libyans now LOVE the western powers that came to help them. It wasn't Iran that came to their aid. This alone can prevent the jihadists from taking power in Libya if Gadafi falls.

[nearmiss]

Jaws

I'm not bashing the Americans. I'm pissed with the gutless persident.
That is not a position for a undecided academician. The president of United States has to be a man of action and a man that has an opinion, not someone that is waiting for the reaction of others, to make up his mind how to act.
I absolutely agree with you that something a lot more dangerous CAN come out of a Libya without Gadaffi.
But the question here is what you stand for. Thugs, dictators that are pretending they like you, or the people?
I'd say the people of Libya have the right to decide their fate, the regime is just too strong and too ruthless and they can't do it alone.
I can tell you that a lot of Libyans now LOVE the western powers that came to help them. It wasn't Iran that came to their aid. This alone can prevent the jihadists from taking power in Libya if Gadafi falls.

--------------------------------------------

Libya, Yemen, Darfur, Sudan, etc. We can go on for quite awhile pointing to despotic governments that subvert and oppress their own people. Currently the most demonstrative radicalized governments are in the hands of Jihadists.

It would be excellent to think since America is now in the thick of it there would be enough goodwilll and empowerment of the people to keep the radical factions from taking over. Not so, the anti-American media will twist and subvert the message of American desire for Libya of democracy to demogogary. It never fails.

It will take alot longer for people to understand propaganda and relative truth. You would think years of oppression by dictators would eventually be engrained into peoples psyche to vehemently oppose more of the same. Yet, they continue to fall into the same quagmire.

There is a thing about American democracy that even Americans are losing touch with. Individual freedom is what Americans enjoy, but they don't take enough individual initiative in the running of their own government to realize they are going to lose that individual freedom.

Individual freedom can only be preserved by individual involvement in the political process.

The less individual participation, the less individual freedom. There is a direct correlation.

[Jaws2002]

Absolutely agree with you.
Countries that get away from some form of opressing government, in many cases end up under another opressive regime in the oposite side of the political spectrum.
The problem is exactly what you mentioned. Lack of individual involvment and in many cases lack of poilitical experience and understanding of the masses in this countries, that have been opressed for a long time.
Two perfect examples. Iran and Rhodesia/Zimbabwe.
This both countries after bloody revolutions went from being opressed by right wing to being oppressed by left wing dictators or left wing/islamists they brought to power.

[nearmiss]

Originally Posted by Jaws2002

Absolutely agree with you.
Countries that get away from some form of opressing government, in many cases end up under another opressive regime in the oposite side of the political spectrum.
The problem is exactly what you mentioned. Lack of individual involvment and in many cases lack of poilitical experience and understanding of the masses in this countries, that have been opressed for a long time.
Two perfect examples. Iran and Rhodesia/Zimbabwe.
This both countries after bloody revolutions went from being opressed by right wing to being oppressed by left wing dictators or left wing/islamists they brought to power.

It is nice we can find common ground to agree. When people educate themselves, quit listening to what they are being led to believe by the media and make decisions for themselves about information they figure things out.

Restructuring for government is a difficult process. The radicals and extremists know this well. The insurrections are organized. There are people waiting quietly on the fringes that already have a formulated agenda and plan of action.

It has not been possible to depose the radicals and extremists in most revolutions, because when the revolution comes it is usually their design.

The only way possible would be to have organized groups of people within the respective countries that understand "We the people" would be ready with a plan of action.

America has tried to provide the framework for nation building in Iraq, by maintaining a firm association with Iraqi leadership. If a democratic form of government does prevail in Iraq that would be a major victory for the freedom of all people in the Middle East.

There are many worst case scenarios that could play out with a defeated Gadahfi, and the prospects for a best case scenario are slim to none. IMO, of course.

[Heliocon]

Originally Posted by nearmiss

Why do you speak so about Obama and the US. It is common knowledge that the Middle East, Eastern Europe, Western Europe, etc. think America is the great oppressor, yet they all want America to police the world.

Recently a radical from Croatia killed two American servicemen in Germany. Why? American soliders died in Croatia trying to stop the genocide and killing of the Croatian Muslims by the Serbian oppressors.

The news media turns things to suit their agenda, the radicals turn things to suit their agenda, and the poor people are misinformed and manipulated to think in those terms.

You know as well as I, no one respects America before or after trying to help. Everyone thinks America always has profit motive. Yet, Americans are burying their sons. Where are all the profits, when does that happen? What is the payback for the dead soldiers and billions of dollars spent to help ungrateful countries? More contempt and hatred of America and an empty wallet

The enemy is the same..radical jihadists.

The difference is most of Libya oil production is going to Western European countries. Western European countries will be forced to acquire more of their oil from Russia. It is not about freedom, it is promoted that way by the media. The Libyans will be just as oppressed by the Jihadists as they have been by Gadahfi. Sorry, it won't be any better. There will be no rule of "We the People" if Gadahfi is out of power. It will be organized radical jihadists who have planned and promoted the insurgency that take the role of oppressing the libyans.

YET, no one is thinking why the jihadists are pushing so hard to take Libya. After they took Egypt... they only got a broke country with no money or resources to promote their agenda. Now that is different with Libya. If the jihadists can get their hooks into a money tree like Libya and dedicate the resources to jihad just think of the havoc they can cause.

America should have stayed out of the Libyan conflict 100% and let the Western European countries with everything to lose see what they can do about Libya.

We will have to wait and see, but you can trust Americans will be hated regardless of the outcome. A new Jihadist Libyan government will pull their factions together to affirm their power and be more oppressive of the Libyan people than Gadahfi.

Sadly, it just looks like more of the same for the people of Libya.

Don't get me wrong... I'd love to be wrong and look forward to a democratic government ruled by "we the people".

You need a reality check. Your posts are completely disconneted from reality. Radical Jihadists? Where? You watch too much fox news, its the whole "poor america, we spread freedom and liberty and only get blame in return" bs that circulates on the right. Which Jihadists took Egypt? Your pulling bs out of thin air, the movement IS ANTI JIHADIST. Why? Because women dont want to be subjugated and repressed anymore, this unrest is driven by the educated middle class who want political reform ie a republican form of government and NOT the old repressive Muslim regimes that the west placed in the post colonial era.

People dislike america because of neocons who foolishly mix ideology and faulty realism to justify their actions. America is (and its a fact) responsible for a huge amount of post WW2 turmoil including indirectly the murder of hundreds of thousands of people in south america by overthrowing democracies, let alone other regions like Iran which had a relativly secular and secure republic until we destroyed it to install the Shah. So when you say we are interested in supporting democracies and thats what US has done in the past - it is patently false as we directly orchestrated or provided the means for dictators to put down their people. I love you citing Yemen though considering its one of the most closely tied regimes in the middle east to the US. Same with egypt, their military uses all US equipment and their officers train and live in the US before returning to egypt. The reason for the political turmoil is because of economic growth, you need to go read up on "relative deprivation".

People dont like american policy because we are hypocrits and like to saber rattle.

[Xilon_x]

everything you mentioned except Italy.
in this issue and 'intervened America because' Europe can not make a decision.
Italy is a country bordering on Africa and is' a country that must be controlled and defended.
Africa could get a real invasion of the people of Somalia Algeria gana Chad in Morocco and you do not even making allowance for the risk you run.Libya and spend all that used to work as a filter and now the filter is' broken.
germany and that 'the center of Europe in the fields concerned I said no war in Libya.
OK dear germany if you do not mind the war in Libya from Europe come out 'cause you're not able to predict the responsibility' and defend the borders of Europe.

[nearmiss]

Originally Posted by Heliocon

You need a reality check. Your posts are completely disconneted from reality. Radical Jihadists? Where?

You must have been out of town or something. Who destroyed the World Trade Centers 911? Who blew up the embassy in Nairobi? Who killed 13 unarmed soldiers at Fort Hood? Who just tried to set off a bomb in Times Square? This a list I could compile since the late 1970s listing all the Jihadist attacks on America alone.

What about the rail attack in Spain, the subway attacks in England, etc.

When you say radical Muslims or Muslim extremists you make Muslims mad, when you say Jihadist at least I'm trying not to identify extremists as peaceful Muslims.

Practically ever terrorist attack in the world since 1979 has been done by Muslim Extremists. They all claim to be Muslim... but are they really just using a religion to give themselves creditability when they should just be called murders and radical extremists using religion to serve up their ends.

We'll have to wait and see on this one for the people supporting and planning the revolution in Egypt to reveal themselves and their ends won't we?

You watch too much fox news, its the whole "poor america, we spread freedom and liberty and only get blame in return" bs that circulates on the right. Which Jihadists took Egypt? Your pulling bs out of thin air, the movement IS ANTI JIHADIST. Why?

You think the people behind that revolution were middle class and only want to stop the abuses of women. LOL

Because women dont want to be subjugated and repressed anymore, this unrest is driven by the educated middle class who want political reform ie a republican form of government and NOT the old repressive Muslim regimes that the west placed in the post colonial era.

I wouldn't think anyone would believe that the revolution in Egypt was for the subjugated and repressed women. A republican form of government would take away power. It wouldn't give it to any one individual or groups of individuals with their own agenda. So... IMO, a republican government it may be called. Yet, you can call a cow a chicken if you like, it won't make it so.

People dislike america because of neocons who foolishly mix ideology and faulty realism to justify their actions. America is (and its a fact) responsible for a huge amount of post WW2 turmoil including indirectly the murder of hundreds of thousands of people in south america by overthrowing democracies, let alone other regions like Iran which had a relativly secular and secure republic until we destroyed it to install the Shah.

I really don't pay much attention to radical propaganda, so all the above would really have to be better proven with factual data or references.

So when you say we are interested in supporting democracies and thats what US has done in the past - it is patently false as we directly orchestrated or provided the means for dictators to put down their people. I love you citing Yemen though considering its one of the most closely tied regimes in the middle east to the US. Same with egypt, their military uses all US equipment and their officers train and live in the US before returning to egypt. The reason for the political turmoil is because of economic growth, you need to go read up on "relative deprivation".

I said America was nation building in Iraq, which is the way it's been described for the past several years. I think you accusations about "orchestrated and provided the means for dictators to put down their people is just radical propaganda".

If anything exists along those lines it would be because everyone imposes on America to fund, provide aid for their screwed up messes, and provide worldwide policing of the world at the expense of American taxpayers.

As I mentioned earlier, the anti-American media turns democratic ideals for countries into evil American demogogary.

Why did the Western European nations turn to the United Nations to take down Gadahfi, the oil, the oil and the oil? The soviet pipes wouldn't flow as cheaply, if there was no oil from Libya to provide some competition that helps hold pricing down.

Wonder why Germany did not join in the fray? Most of their oil comes from Libya.

Why does the world think America has to fix Libya, why does America have to be the front runner? America doesn't buy zip from Libya, what is the advantage. Why does America have to do anything about Libya? Libya is a sovereign nation, where does the United Nations have cause to interfere? The United Nations is doing more to affect freedom in all nations, including the US. Have you wondered why the United Nations is involved?

Believe me, even though you don't like reading what I'm saying... there will be a biased media spin on this that will make America the bad guy. Happens every time. It won't matter that America will outspend every participating country involved in this police action... and still turn out to be the bad guys.

People dont like american policy because we are hypocrits and like to saber rattle.

Say what you will, but another despotic government will replace Gadahfi, and if it's a Jihadist motivated group of people there will be more terrorist attacks than ever. They'll have access to funding they've never had before....from the sale of Libyan crude. It will be like giving a college kid a bank for his birthday, what a bunch of trouble will be brewed when the money is available for unabated terrorist activism.

A note about hypocrits... what about all continuing genocide in Darfur and in Sudan. Where is the United Nations in all this murder and mayhem. It is still going on today. Where was the United Nations in Zimbabwe, in Congo, in Rwanda, etc.,etc. I'd say you need to think about some of those things when you defame America as hypocritical.

America's commitment to Haiti for aid around 1 billion dollars, Chavez sent one plane load of aid, the Chinese send a million dollars. Regardless, there is no country in the world that is as generous as America. Fact is, America gives more in aid to foreign countries than the REST OF THE WORLD COMBINED. How much is that worth, even if you can blame some Hypocrisy on America. Ask the starving people to curse America as they fill their bellies...with donated American food.

Helicon,

I'm going to let you have the last word on this topic. I don't think the discussion will take the posting anywhere, but to a not so pleasant ending. This is not a political forums, and the orginal topic is very off topic for this forums. I responded on it, and probably shouldn't have. Therefore, I think in all fairness after you reply I will lock thread and we can get back to business as usual.