Friday update and discussions 2011-03-18

[Heliocon]

Originally Posted by recoilfx

We are in the first half of 2011, the game is releasing in 2 weeks, with DX11 market share still <6%. So if Maddox really pushed for DX11, they are sacrificing their time for that 6% instead of the remaining 94%. This is the same exact reason why Crysis 2 got scaled back, they got burned for pushing too hard on the first one. I'd have to disagree with you on Crysis 2 looking worse than the first one, but let's at least agree to disagree on that one.

Also, how will DX11 sky rocket? The rate of change is more or less linear, from 0-5%. If anything, history indicates most changes are linear, not exponential according to the steam graphs.

Sandy Bridge is not DX11, Llano won't be out till end of this year, Ivy bridge next year - all the mainstream DX11 parts will need time for uptake too.

Also, I have not heard of a single game released/being released that's heavily based on DirectCompute. The development started 5 years ago, reality will not have allowed this to happen.

What's important is that the engine is built to be scalable - that's what future proofing is, and if that's the case, I'd agree with Maddox' assessment that this is THE next-gen engine. DirectCompute, tessalation, shaders can be added when the return of investment seems solid.

Having DX11 currently on CloD will not make it better - from the released screenshots and videos, this game suffers from polish and optimization. Having one more item on the list will further deteriorate the quality of this game.

Unfortunately we have to accept the realities of our flight sim niche market. We don't have 300 men team working on a single game. Beggars can't be choosers.

Just for the record here about your post:
1. Your numbers I guess you pulled out of your backside, which makes it super funny when you say dx11<6% because you have absolutely no idea do you? Feb data, highest % share of market graphics card used is ATi Radeon 5770, with a 7.22% market share and a +0.5% share increase from Jan->Feb which meanes this one single card alone is higher then your claim for total dx11 cards. Following is 5850 with 4.48% share and then 460GTX with 4.6% share. So that means those three cards alone make up about 16%-17% of the market share... = FAIL
http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/directx/

2. I dont care if you diagree or not, crysis 2 engine is worse than crysis 1 in the majority of areas. It doesnt matter what your opinion is, go youtube the comparisons. You can wish away the fact that they reduced the draw distances, or changed and removed lighting features in the game.

3. I love how oyu bring sandybridge in here, you do realise thats a CPU not a GPU? Really... thats sad, your making yourself look very silly. In fact, dont ever post about computer hardware again for your own sake because not only are you confused about what is and is not related to DX11, but you dont even seem to know what Direct X is...
Also incase you have completely fooled/confused yourself and you are thinking about the onboard gpus for SB cpus, they hold less then a 1% market share and will not gain any share in desktops. No one wants a onboard gpu for gaming, the target market is laptops and low end pcs. But no components are DX11 other then GPUs, so = fail

4. A game being heavily based on directcompute? Really.... after 4 fails without a win do you get to call in a failstrike? o.0
Do you even know what direct compute is? How would you base a game off it? Maybe its because you can base a game on direct compute and that is never what it was designed for?

5. Yes they can be added, I never said they cant. When they are added and integrated and running well then it will be a cutting edge next gen engine. But currently at release it is not, and thats the reality of the situation as you put it.

This forum seems to love cognitive dissonance: This game will have the best graphics ever in pc history, it is pushing the envelope and is SO good no ones computer can max it out!- Stop whinning, there a 20 person dev team, how can you expect them to implement new cutting edge tech and features when they have a shoestring budget???

-Also its rather stupid to just look at the graphs like you did then make silly statements, because if you looked carefully/critically you would of noticed that its on a scale from May 2009 - May 2010 for gpus and 2008-2010 for cpus.
-Also the DX11 features I mentioned make the devs work easier not harder, thats part of the reason dx11 is good.

[David Hayward]

Heliocon, if CoD isn't going to be the best WW2 flight sim out there, what is? I want the best.

[LukeFF]

So, what was this thread about?

[DoolittleRaider]

Originally Posted by LukeFF

So, what was this thread about?

GREAT question....and astute observation!

The thread was originally about the Week's wonderful COD Update from Oleg!

Sheesh!!!....This place is getting worse than the old UBI ZOO in the early IL-2 days, years ago!

Meanwhile, to get back on track (hopefully):

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=19318

[Heliocon]

Originally Posted by David Hayward

Heliocon, if CoD isn't going to be the best WW2 flight sim out there, what is? I want the best.

I never said it wasnt going to be. But you would know that if you could read...

@luke - not much, it is about the fact that the majority of the this forum are technically inept or do not know how to read and scroll back a few pages to find the original post that I responded to, and what my post actually said. So they jump on the bandwagon late without a clue and wrongly fill in the blanks themselves with assumptions.

@blackdog - stop making stupid assumptions, they are wrong. Dont just believe what he says because he says it, go look at the link. He doesnt know what he is talking about. As of February 2011, I just went through the top 1/3 of the list of GPUs by market share and tallied up all the dx11 gpus which currently according to my calculator = 30.06% of total market share (+- 2% margin of error if you want to be technical). I would also like to say I was wrong about the intel gpus as it has a 1.6% market share but it is down .12% since last month.
-again, out of the 15 fastest growing cards in % market share, 14 of them are DX11 cards, which is the only of the segment that is growing because currently both dx10 and dx9 are losing market share rapidly.

In any case your optimistic number of 20% 3 months from now is obviously not accurate because right now its at 30%... fail again

Also DX11 runs many tasks more efficiently then dx10 but it also helps alot with multithreaded processes interms of removing bottlenecks with allocating rescources and syncing etc. Personally I dont know enough of the specific details of how the delegation works though to go into detail.

[Royraiden]

Some here seem to think they are always "right" and enjoy telling everyone else that they are "wrong" with insults.

[recoilfx]

Originally Posted by Heliocon

Just for the record here about your post:
1. Your numbers I guess you pulled out of your backside, which makes it super funny when you say dx11<6% because you have absolutely no idea do you? Feb data, highest % share of market graphics card used is ATi Radeon 5770, with a 7.22% market share and a +0.5% share increase from Jan->Feb which meanes this one single card alone is higher then your claim for total dx11 cards. Following is 5850 with 4.48% share and then 460GTX with 4.6% share. So that means those three cards alone make up about 16%-17% of the market share... = FAIL
http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/directx/

2. I dont care if you diagree or not, crysis 2 engine is worse than crysis 1 in the majority of areas. It doesnt matter what your opinion is, go youtube the comparisons. You can wish away the fact that they reduced the draw distances, or changed and removed lighting features in the game.

3. I love how oyu bring sandybridge in here, you do realise thats a CPU not a GPU? Really... thats sad, your making yourself look very silly. In fact, dont ever post about computer hardware again for your own sake because not only are you confused about what is and is not related to DX11, but you dont even seem to know what Direct X is...
Also incase you have completely fooled/confused yourself and you are thinking about the onboard gpus for SB cpus, they hold less then a 1% market share and will not gain any share in desktops. No one wants a onboard gpu for gaming, the target market is laptops and low end pcs. But no components are DX11 other then GPUs, so = fail

4. A game being heavily based on directcompute? Really.... after 4 fails without a win do you get to call in a failstrike? o.0
Do you even know what direct compute is? How would you base a game off it? Maybe its because you can base a game on direct compute and that is never what it was designed for?

5. Yes they can be added, I never said they cant. When they are added and integrated and running well then it will be a cutting edge next gen engine. But currently at release it is not, and thats the reality of the situation as you put it.

This forum seems to love cognitive dissonance: This game will have the best graphics ever in pc history, it is pushing the envelope and is SO good no ones computer can max it out!- Stop whinning, there a 20 person dev team, how can you expect them to implement new cutting edge tech and features when they have a shoestring budget???

-Also its rather stupid to just look at the graphs like you did then make silly statements, because if you looked carefully/critically you would of noticed that its on a scale from May 2009 - May 2010 for gpus and 2008-2010 for cpus.
-Also the DX11 features I mentioned make the devs work easier not harder, thats part of the reason dx11 is good.

1.) You are right, it was from 2010. I didn't see the finer print. However, you did make a mistake, the page you linked is the count of all DX10/DX11 cards. The actual percentage since February is over here: http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/?platform=pc. Adding all the values at DirectX11(Vista/W7 + DX11 GPU) system section will net you 17% - for all DX11 parts.

2.) We don't have to get into this, I personally think Crysis 2 look great and they made great improvements on the both the art direction and optimization.

3.) You missed my point. I brought up Sandy Bridge because it has competent a GPU for the masses. Even if it were DX11 ready, it would not make a tent for for DX market share, which you btw, agreed with me.

4.) Are your serious? You were referring to using part of DX11 for computation heavy tasks, so I WAS talking about games UTILIZING directcompute for their prominent engine features (for CloD, that'd be physics, and weather(?)), other engines, I don't know, but you are welcome to correct me.

5.) This is the NEXT GEN flight sim engine. Please point out a comparable flight sim engine that's released/being released in the next 6 months (or a year). I have never believed one bit that this engine has the best graphics in video games (I don't remember Oleg saying that), but it does have the best graphics we have seen for flight sims. It has its short comings - crappy clouds and water as I have pointed out earlier, but over all, everything else is leaves the competitions in the dust.

DX11 is easier to develop on, but you'd be insane to not develop for DX10 too. So in the long run, DX11 will still cost development time.

The question remains, is 17.1% of market share at the time of release justify developers maintain two different rendering paths plus different physics engines? Seeing how Maddox is strapped for cash (Oleg had mentioned that CloD was supposed to be released by BoB anniversary last year due to financial issues), aiming for DX10 is the wise choice.

And no, it does not mean that it's antiquated. If this is antiquated, then show us a comparable flight sim engine.

[Trooper117]

Ref the update video.. Looks just great and will be a joy to play. Can't wait!

[Heliocon]

Originally Posted by recoilfx

1.) You are right, it was from 2010. I didn't see the finer print. However, you did make a mistake, the page you linked is the count of all DX10/DX11 cards. The actual percentage since February is over here: http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/?platform=pc. Adding all the values at DirectX11(Vista/W7 + DX11 GPU) system section will net you 17% - for all DX11 parts.

2.) We don't have to get into this, I personally think Crysis 2 look great and they made great improvements on the both the art direction and optimization.

3.) You missed my point. I brought up Sandy Bridge because it has competent a GPU for the masses. Even if it were DX11 ready, it would not make a tent for for DX market share, which you btw, agreed with me.

4.) Are your serious? You were referring to using part of DX11 for computation heavy tasks, so I WAS talking about games UTILIZING directcompute for their prominent engine features (for CloD, that'd be physics, and weather(?)), other engines, I don't know, but you are welcome to correct me.

5.) This is the NEXT GEN flight sim engine. Please point out a comparable flight sim engine that's released/being released in the next 6 months (or a year). I have never believed one bit that this engine has the best graphics in video games (I don't remember Oleg saying that), but it does have the best graphics we have seen for flight sims. It has its short comings - crappy clouds and water as I have pointed out earlier, but over all, everything else is leaves the competitions in the dust.

DX11 is easier to develop on, but you'd be insane to not develop for DX10 too. So in the long run, DX11 will still cost development time.

The question remains, is 17.1% of market share at the time of release justify developers maintain two different rendering paths plus different physics engines? Seeing how Maddox is strapped for cash (Oleg had mentioned that CloD was supposed to be released by BoB anniversary last year due to financial issues), aiming for DX10 is the wise choice.

And no, it does not mean that it's antiquated. If this is antiquated, then show us a comparable flight sim engine.

TBH good post. I missed the stat page you used from steam, I was viewing it through the client (although I am sure it has the options in it) and never used specific windows/that page before. thanks for posting that, good info.

As for sandybridge people who use those gpus probably wont be gaming though.

As for direct compute, maybe it was the wording but to me it came off as you saying it was equivalent to DX or something similar (which I assumed you were thinking). Direct compute is meant for particle physics mainly (so smoke/water/fog/clouds etc), as far as plane physics its unusual but yes they said they would use it. But when you said game "based" on direct compute that lead me to believe that what you were saying was different then what you intended to say. Yes it is the best upcoming flightsim engine, so my wording (antiquated) may not of been the most appropriate to use. What I was making and argument about was that it is not bleeding edge tech at release (just because its the only flight sim to do this doesnt make it bleeding edge tech...). I think it is a bad argument to make when people have to say - it lags horribly and the devs can only put it on medium settings (which tbh dont look that good) and therefore since we cant max it out, it must be amazing!

Glad we cleared that up, and thank you for the clarifications - which if people make an argument based on sound reasoning and evidence for their points I am fine with (being wrong), what gets on my nerves is people like Chivas trolling posts with general insults without substance and that makes me a bit jumpy on the trigger in my replies.

[Chivas]

"which if people make an argument based on sound reasoning and evidence for their points I am fine with (being wrong), what gets on my nerves is people like Chivas trolling posts with general insults without substance and that makes me a bit jumpy on the trigger in my replies." heliocon

General insults, LMFAO, you should try reading your own posts. While your at it try using sound reasoning and evidence before you declare COD antiquated for years to come. I'd say you have a 5% chance of being right.