Head Tracking with Cliffs of Dover

[adonys]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

It has been proven there is no NP monopoly, so why persist in this?

I haven't seen any proof you're talking about. And have you seen me ever before saying this, to talk about me persisting in this?

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

Given, it is a completely different product and slightly different qualities such as resolution (iiuc)

You are right, the resolution is much better in M$'s Kinect.

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

How do you determine the "true price" of any product?

Simply: by estimating the costs of the hardware incorporated in that product, deducting it from the selling price to obtain the added value cost, and comparing the added value cost with that of other similar products.

Regarding the above comparison, the hardware from M$'s Kinect is MUCH more expensive than the one from NP's TrackIR, and the same for the research and software needed for those two products. With the selling price being the same, it's obvious that NP's TrackIR is MUCH overpriced.

Also, if you may find the comparison forced, we can analyze just the TrackIR itself: NP are selling the product mostly online, which means they can't pay more than 20% for the online seller. The usual profit rate for a good business is somewhere at 10%. Let's cut NP a slack and allow a 30% profit. I doubt that the hardware required for a TrackIR exceeds 10-15 euros, which would be roughly around 10% from the selling price. Do the sum, and you'll get 40% for.. what? drivers and sowftare and research? in a 5th generation product, which only evolved from hardware's point of view? The real price of TrackIR should not exceed 50-60 euro.

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

all that is your perogative, but let me ask; do you also whinge about the charge for video cards?

Aaa.. you are serious about comparing a video card's research, hardware and software costs with that of a head-tracking device like TrackIR? Maybe if compared with Kinect.. but with TrakIR?!! You must be joking, or playing stupid, better make sure you won't remain like that after..

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

undoubtedly, but some here got upset because support stopped for "old" products.

Stopping support for "old" products is an indicator of economic greed, if that product is not hardware deprecated. Which is the case in here, as at least TrackIR's 3 hardware is fine enough (and the device itself not so old in usage-years).

PS: Please do not try to impose your bullying attitude you've displyed on this thread towards me, I'll have none of it. Thank you!

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by adonys

I haven't seen any proof you're talking about. And have you seen me ever before saying this, to talk about me persisting in this?

You obviously haven't read the thread through (either of them) and are operating under a misapprehension... you were corrected

Originally Posted by adonys

You are right, the resolution is much better in M$'s Kinect.

are you sure?

Originally Posted by adonys

Simply: by estimating the costs of the hardware incorporated in that product, deducting it from the selling price to obtain the added value cost, and comparing the added value cost with that of other similar products.

Regarding the above comparison, the hardware from M$'s Kinect is MUCH more expensive than the one from NP's TrackIR, and the same for the research and software needed for those two products. With the selling price being the same, it's obvious that NP's TrackIR is MUCH overpriced.

Also, if you may find the comparison forced, we can analyze just the TrackIR itself: NP are selling the product mostly online, which means they can't pay more than 20% for the online seller. The usual profit rate for a good business is somewhere at 10%. Let's cut NP a slack and allow a 30% profit. I doubt that the hardware required for a TrackIR exceeds 10-15 euros, which would be roughly around 10% from the selling price. Do the sum, and you'll get 40% for.. what? drivers and sowftare and research? in a 5th generation product, which only evolved from hardware's point of view? The real price of TrackIR should not exceed 50-60 euro.

Have you considered including labour costs, packaging and manufacturing overheads? and TIR is available in retail outlets as well.

Originally Posted by adonys

Aaa.. you are serious about comparing a video card's research, hardware and software costs with that of a head-tracking device like TrackIR? Maybe if compared with Kinect.. but with TrakIR?!! You must be joking, or playing stupid, better make sure you won't remain like that after..

that's you making a false connection there... so what of the charge for video cards? and why no cries of duopopoly?

Originally Posted by adonys

Stopping support for "old" products is an indicator of economic greed, if that product is not hardware deprecated. Which is the case in here, as at least TrackIR's 3 hardware is fine enough (and the device itself not so old in usage-years).

so... dropping support for AGP, gameport, and basically p/2 and floppy drives is greed?

Originally Posted by adonys

PS: Please do not try to impose your bullying attitude you've displyed on this thread towards me, I'll have none of it. Thank you!

don't falsely claim monopoly, when there isn't and you'll have no need for your aggressive defence when corrected



*Edit

Originally Posted by sigur_ros

Ubi/Oleg might not talk but others do, recently Miner Wars developer considering TrackIR support:

"The good thing about TrackIR is its Standardized so people will know it will work with there hardware with out any tweaking. Also the product is very sound and high quality, you may not like TrackIR for w/e reason but it is an industry standard and most likely will be going with it, we may support others in the future only time will tell." http://www.minerwars.com/ForumTopic.aspx?id=487

Industry standard is as good as monopoly.

give it another go, son (read down a few posts)

[vicinity]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

You obviously haven't read the thread through (either of them) and are operating under a misapprehension... you were corrected

How about instead of telling people to read the thread you go back and quote this "proof"? If it is simply a post of you saying "no it isn't" then that doesn't count. You've tried this a couple of times in this (and the other) thread and it isn't really fooling anybody.

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

are you sure?

80% of NPs TrackIR products (1-4) have a lower resolution than Kinect. TrackIR 5 has an identical resolution to Kinect.

I was going to drop it earlier as clearly you can't be reasoned with but your persistance of attacking Freetrack in these threads as well as a google search showing me this isn't the only forum you have done it on leads me to agree with some others conclusion that you are in fact a Natural Point employee.

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by vicinity

How about instead of telling people to read the thread you go back and quote this "proof"? If it is simply a post of you saying "no it isn't" then that doesn't count. You've tried this a couple of times in this (and the other) thread and it isn't really fooling anybody.

How about you go back and read the thread through, instead?
Its not meant to "fool" anyone, it is meant as do yourself a favour and catch up... otherwise things really would be going around in circles, complete with quotes from pages ago. Then the cries of "spamming" would start, eh

Originally Posted by vicinity

80% of NPs TrackIR products (1-4) have a lower resolution than Kinect. TrackIR 5 has an identical resolution to Kinect.

thanks

Originally Posted by vicinity

I was going to drop it earlier as clearly you can't be reasoned with but your persistance of attacking Freetrack in these threads as well as a google search showing me this isn't the only forum you have done it on leads me to agree with some others conclusion that you are in fact a Natural Point employee.

reasoning is easy... just come to the party with honest discussion. Now just because you feel a hack should be allowed and someone else feels a hack shouldn't be allowed, makes for a difference of opinion... I'm sorry you don't like a different opinion to yours, is this where things are going to get narsty? and which forums do you mean there?

[vicinity]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

How about you go back and read the thread through, instead?

I'll tell you again, I have! What would be the point in me looking through a thread again for something that doesn't exist?

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

reasoning is easy... just come to the party with honest discussion. Now just because you feel a hack should be allowed and someone else feels a hack shouldn't be allowed, makes for a difference of opinion... I'm sorry you don't like a different opinion to yours, is this where things are going to get narsty? and which forums do you mean there?

See that's the thing, it's your opinion that it's a hack. You've made your feelings quite clear yet every time someone comes in to show their support for the inclusion of FT you repeat them.

I don't mind the opinions of others, and I don't expect to be able to change them. What I mind is people stating their opinion as fact without backing those opinions up and circular arguements repeacted to try and force your opinion onto others. This is what is happening imo and the reason i've let myself get sucked back into this topic.

I have no intention for things to get nasty so don't worry about that. If you can't remember where, try a google search for wolf rider and freetrack. I suppose there is a possibility it isn't you.

[adonys]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

You obviously haven't read the thread through (either of them) and are operating under a misapprehension... you were corrected

In fact, you haven't corrected anything, just made a statement without any support. Which equals bullshit in any common sense interpretation. Actually, you were the one corrected for the wrong use of the "persistent" word. A wrong you don't seem to accept or even understand.

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

are you sure?

Yes, I am sure. Why would I be less sure than you when stating that TrackIR has better resolution than Kinect? Where is the data to support that statement?

Let me tell you the actual data, as the person above stated, the resolution is equal, ie 640x480. Raw. Which kinda leads me to another serious thing: Why would NP post a RAW resolution on their site for TIR5 specs? The answer to that is the well known white-painted marketing: make public a true, but not useful, characteristic. Why would someone be interested in TIR5's RAW resolution? I am interested in TIR output/computed resolution, which might even be 32x24 if you ask me, as long as NP doesn't make any statement regarding this.

So, M$'s Kinectic is using a 320x240 out resolution.. What output resolution is using TIR5? None on NP's site, so, allow me, until NP will make that public, to consider Kinectic's resolution bigger.

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

Have you considered including labour costs, packaging and manufacturing overheads? and TIR is available in retail outlets as well.

Yes, I have considered them. They were embedded into the hardware (manufacture) price of 10-15 euros. Retail outlets ask for a bigger % from the selling cost than online sellers, yet most of the NP's sells are made via the online stores, so that can be safely ignored.

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

that's you making a false connection there... so what of the charge for video cards? and why no cries of duopopoly?

That is not me making a false connection, but you eating bullexcrements.

I was talking about a fair price, and you said why not complain about videocards, then you turned it into a monopoly complain, which was actually not. that monopoly complain was above.

And just for you to learn, there's no duopoly (which actually is a special case of oligopoly) on the videocard market, you're confusing the production of videocard chipsets with videocards manufacturers. And basic economic knowledge would have told you that an oligopoly is not necessary a bad thing, as long as the players are not following an agreed (price) policy and a correct market competition exists between them.

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

so... dropping support for AGP, gameport, and basically p/2 and floppy drives is greed?

those are classic examples of hardware deprecated. There is a BIG difference bewteen the way an AGp vs PCIx hardware are working. Can you tell me why TIR3 hardware is considered deprecated, and sodiferent thant the hardware from TRI4 or 5 to not be supported anymore?

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

don't falsely claim monopoly, when there isn't and you'll have no need for your aggressive defence when corrected

It's obvious you have no common sense and are not a reasonable person to talk with. Even more, your fanaticism is suspect of direct NP influence.

I have nothing more to say or talk to you anymore, please feel free to consider this discussion with you ended and yourself ignored.

[Wolf_Rider]

Originally Posted by adonys

In fact, you haven't corrected anything, just made a statement without any support. Which equals bullshit in any common sense interpretation. Actually, you were the one corrected for the wrong use of the "persistent" word. A wrong you don't seem to accept or even understand.

err, if you go back and read through, you'll find you're wrong

Originally Posted by adonys

Yes, I am sure. Why would I be less sure than you when stating that TrackIR has better resolution than Kinect? Where is the data to support that statement?

where did I say that?

Originally Posted by adonys

Let me tell you the actual data, as the person above stated, the resolution is equal, ie 640x40. Raw. Which kinda leads me to another serious thing: Why would NP post a RAW resolution on their site for TIR5 specs? The answer to that is the well known white-painted marketing: make public a true, but not useful, characteristic. Why would someone be interested in TIR5's RAW resolution? I am interested in TIR output/computed resolution, which might even be 32x24 if you ask me, as long as NP doesn't make any statement regarding this.

Does Kinect publish that? and I think you mean 480, not 40

Originally Posted by adonys

So, M$'s Kinectic is using a 320x240 out resolution.. What output resolution is using TIR5? None on NP's site, so, allow me, until NP will make that public, to consider Kinectic's resolution bigger.

and that is important, because _ _ _ _ _ ?

Originally Posted by adonys

Yes, I have considered them. They were embedded into the hardware (manufacture) price of 10-15 euros.

you may have underestimated, but that's not uncommon

Originally Posted by adonys

Retail outlets ask for a bigger % from the selling cost than online sellers, yet most of the NP's sells are made via the online stores, so that can be safely ignored.

agreed... ignore it

Originally Posted by adonys

That is not me making a false connection, but you eating bullexcrements.

same situation, different players and you try to ignore one in favour of the other

Originally Posted by adonys

I was talking about a fair price,

see the above

Originally Posted by adonys

and you said why not complain about videocards, then you turned it into a monopoly complain, which was actually not.

incorrect... I mentioned duopoly

Originally Posted by adonys

that monopoly complain was above.

yours and corrected

Originally Posted by adonys

And just for you to learn, there's no duopoly (which actually is a special case of oligopoly) on the videocard market, you're confusing the production of videocard chipsets with videocards manufacturers. And basic economic knowledge would have told you that an oligopoly is not necessary a bad thing, as long as the players are not following an agreed (price) policy and a correct market competition exists between them.

manufacturers get the chips from which of two major manufacturers?

Originally Posted by adonys

those are classic examples of hardware deprecated. There is a BIG difference bewteen the way an AGp vs PCIx hardware are working. Can you tell me why TIR3 hardware is considered deprecated, and sodiferent thant the hardware from TRI4 or 5 to not be supported anymore?

the equivalents of speed, amount ofdata transfer... perhaps? same as AGP/ PCIx

Originally Posted by adonys

It's obvious you have no common sense and are not a reasonable person to talk with. Even more, your fanaticism is suspect of direct NP influence.

and what has that got to do with the thread?

Originally Posted by adonys

I have nothing more to say or talk to you anymore, please feel free to consider this discussion with you ended and yourself ignored.

If I had a dollar for every time I've heard that..




let me also ask; does the xbox kinnect connect with earlier xboxes?

[swiss]

Originally Posted by adonys

Also, if you may find the comparison forced, we can analyze just the TrackIR itself: NP are selling the product mostly online, which means they can't pay more than 20% for the online seller. The usual profit rate for a good business is somewhere at 10%. Let's cut NP a slack and allow a 30% profit. I doubt that the hardware required for a TrackIR exceeds 10-15 euros, which would be roughly around 10% from the selling price. Do the sum, and you'll get 40% for.. what? drivers and sowftare and research? in a 5th generation product, which only evolved from hardware's point of view? The real price of TrackIR should not exceed 50-60 euro.

Your employer should pay you in percentage instead of dollars.

In fact I think the hardware of TIR is about $10 including the cap.
But there is still marketing, development(salaries), rent for office/warehouse and production facility setup - your supplier doesn't make the molds for free, you are aware of that, right?


Let's do some calculations on numbers I have and a good bunch of guessing:

Judging by serial numbers of Tir 5, they sold at least 30k units in 09/10.
I got serial 120xxx and I read about 160xxx.

Now let's look at the euro reseller prices:
€145, minus tax €116.
Margin: Your 20% are wrong for sure, that's nowhere enough unless it's a huge amount. A reseller takes 30-40, specially if it's a unit with low sales numbers. NP can probably wholesale sell it for 60, maybe 70 euros.

USA: best guess $70-80


Reseller vs NP e-shop: Judging by the members on NP forum, I would say 70% bought from a reseller.


Units USA vs rest the world: I have no numbers, so lets merge $ and € prices and take (high) $80 as an average reseller price.


70% go into wholesale @ $80= 21k*$80= $1.6mil
30% direct= 10k*150= $1.5mil

3 millions - wow, to pay all the crap I listed at the beginning?
But wait: That is for 2 years, so we're down to 1.5/y.
1.5mil equals a shop with 3 to 4 employees...
Even better: Cut that in half, because it's sooooo overpriced.

In case anyone has additional info, like higher or lower serials, proof of margins or the like, please post here.

[robtek]

Swiss, thats one of the better posts here !!!

[adonys]

well, the math is only partially correct. because:

- a serial number of 160xxx rather leads towards a 160k units produced, not just 30k.
- even at 30k, with 1.5 mils a year and 5 employees paid at let's say 3k a month (which is a big wedge) will results in 5x3x2x12 (employees, wedge, taxes, months) = 360k a year. add another 300k for hardware costs (10x30k) and you'll get expenses of around 660k. let's throw another 300k for the other expenses (rent and so on, even if is more than three times what should be spent on for these), and you'll get 960k from 1500k. a profit of more than 50%, which is HUGE.

now, considering NP is not only doing TrackIR, the costs should be even less.

And if we'll actually consider the 160k units produced and at least 140k sold (I'm sure they are not manufacturing them all at once, but in batches accordingly to demand), then we are looking at other summs entirely.

Nothing of this change the fact that TrackIR is nothing more than a sort of performant camera, hardware wise, and asking 150 euro for that, is WAY too much.