Spit sabotaged, Goering releieved

[PE_Tihi]

Originally Posted by fruitbat

1, its not as bad as you make out, lateral instability is the only problem.

2, wait until the fix patch. it address the lateral instability, and all is is good in the world again.

Well, try climbing vertically until you reach something like 100 km/h, then you 'll see what happens. And mind you, it is exactly at these stall speeds that the Bf behaves very well. It should, too; that is what the HP slats are for.

In 4.09 I used 300 m convergence for the Spit. Can't hit a thing at 250m in 4.10.

You say it s not that bad, lateral stabillity being the only problem. The stability, especially lateral is the worst kind of problem a plane can have.

There is another problem, too; the plane has a strong nose up trim. If you trim it out, you wont have the full up elevator for a narrow turn. I didnt even mention it.

[Fenrir]

Originally Posted by PE_Tihi

There is another problem, too; the plane has a strong nose up trim. If you trim it out, you wont have the full up elevator for a narrow turn. I didnt even mention it.

You clearly do not fully grasp the nature of trim.

It does, in NO way, WHATSOEVER, increase ability to turn. It does not give more elevator throw. It does not make them more effective. It will only ever alter the stick zero-force point.

I realise Il-2s implementation of this is not great, however, a competent pilot will trim as he fights, and pre-empt situations. I suggest you start flying the P-38 to learn how to do that effectively.

[PE_Tihi]

Originally Posted by Fenrir

You clearly do not fully grasp the nature of trim.

It does, in NO way, WHATSOEVER, increase ability to turn. It does not give more elevator throw. It does not make them more effective. It will only ever alter the stick zero-force point.

I realise Il-2s implementation of this is not great, however, a competent pilot will trim as he fights, and pre-empt situations. I suggest you start flying the P-38 to learn how to do that effectively.

I bought a X52 more than 3 years ago. The stick has non-contact sensors on the main axes. That makes the use of exponential output tables unnecessary. I use the 10, 20, 30... 100 - linear output.
I found out very soon after that, the trimming is no longer indispensable. Stick forces on a X52 are quite a bit lower than on a P38, you ll agree. Once the jerky character of the exponential output has been removed, I didnt feel a real need for trim. Other, more energy sensitive friends of mine still do.

Trim tabs DO influence the control surface effect in real life, too. Take a look at their picture somewhere; deflecting the control surface, they deflect the airstream in the oposite direction slightly. And more, the trimming has a price in drag, too- no matter if you do it with a tab or the stick. ( It s more with the stick, cause your hand not so steady, etc)

As for the game-in my experience trimming does reduce the maximum throw of a control, even if that should not be so. A plane I always trim is the Japanese Ki43- it has a strong nose up tendency, too. Trimming the nose down reduces the maximum upward throw of the elevatror strongly. Shouldn't be like that, but it is.

All that said- the upward trim is a minor problem, compared to the stability of the 4.10 Spit.

[swiss]

Originally Posted by PE_Tihi

Stick forces on a X52 are quite a bit lower than on a P38,

Huh?
First is a joystick, second a plane.
To simulate the forces you just reduce the output(f.i. 25 when it's actually 100).
Maybe I didn't get your point.

As for the game-in my experience trimming does reduce the maximum throw of a control, even if that should not be so

No? It shouldn't?

Please, feel free to explain how this works in RL.

[PE_Tihi]

Originally Posted by swiss

Huh?
First is a joystick, second a plane.
To simulate the forces you just reduce the output(f.i. 25 when it's actually 100).
Maybe I didn't get your point.



No? It shouldn't?

Please, feel free to explain how this works in RL.

The aim of the trim controls is to relieve the pilot of pulling or pushing the stick with a constant force all the time; that can be tiring. Even the joystick forces can be tiring if you got to hold it quite far away from its neutral position. Among other things, this high constant force makes the hand control the stick in an imprecise manner, with the flight curve getting wavy.

That has been exactly the case using the exponential control curves the game offers for the potentiometer sticks. These are intended to deal with the 'noise' problem of the potentiometers. Namely, in the vicinity of the neutral, the noise can be stronger than the stick signal, twitching the plane and making it shudder all the time. If you reduce the stick output in the zone near to the neutral point, you reduce this shuddering - and farther away the noise effect is less noticeable.

That was the ratio behind the stick output tables of the IL2. Still, using them had several disadvantages; among them - you had to swing your stick far out to get a strong control output. That means, if you wanted to climb constantly, for example, you had to push the stick hard back; moreover, reacting exponentially, the stick output would start growing steeply with each millimeter you pulled, making the precise control impossible; your climb curve looked like a wave.

So the the trim controlls in the Il2 are really necessary if you are using the potentiometer stick and the exponential output curve it needs. Or if you fly any of the pronounced energy fighters like the P38 and don't want to throw away an ounce of energy. For the lesser mortals like me with a hall sensor stick- the hand alone gives a control that is precise enough in most cases.

That is what I meant, and I hope i could explain it, too; if not, do feel free to ask, please.

[Falke]

PE_Tihi - There is another problem, too; the plane has a strong nose up trim. If you trim it out, you wont have the full up elevator for a narrow turn. I didnt even mention it.

So do the 109's

[PE_Tihi]

Originally Posted by Falke

PE_Tihi - There is another problem, too; the plane has a strong nose up trim. If you trim it out, you wont have the full up elevator for a narrow turn. I didnt even mention it.

So do the 109's

Any plane pushes its nose slightly up when you open the throttle, that's normal, Bf does it too. I fly the Bf quite a lot. And if you dont know what am I talking about here, then you do not fly the Spit very much.

[PE_Tihi]

Originally Posted by swiss

Huh?
First is a joystick, second a plane.
To simulate the forces you just reduce the output(f.i. 25 when it's actually 100).
Maybe I didn't get your point.



No? It shouldn't?

Please, feel free to explain how this works in RL.

I see now I answered only a part of your questions. What you mean is the output reduction to simulate the growing stick forces at high speeds; this cannot be done by the stick output table, it is done by the game code, dynamically, according to the plane speed. (No sense in reducing it at the stick, to be in force all the time irrespective of the plane speed)

Trim surfaces on the WWII planes looked like small 'rudders on a rudder', small control surfaces that would offset the main control surface slightly from its neutral line. Trim surface had to go down a bit to push the elevator up into a climb position. It ll be clear to you , that the maximum control moment of the elevator would be slightly reduced in it's extreme upward (climb) position, trimming surface deflecting the air-stream in the 'wrong', downward direction slightly.
So , if you trim 'UP', the effect of the elevator in the extreme upwards position would be slightly reduced.
It is more or less opposite in IL2, where trimming the elevator DOWN, for example, reduces the effectiveness of the upwards elevator, unless you pull it to the really extreme position- and nobody ever does that actually.
To really simulate the trim, the stick should move slightly as you apply it, hands off. As you see, that is impossible to recreate exactly.
Take a look at the plane elevators on ground in the game, put it to climb position and use the trim. On a real plane the elevator and the stick move always together. In any position except the extreme one, the trimmed elevator in-game is some degrees off from where the stick says it should be. As the elevator nears its extreme throw, the game has to put these two positions together.

[swiss]

Originally Posted by PE_Tihi

Trim surfaces on the WWII planes looked like small 'rudders on a rudder', small control surfaces that would offset the main control surface slightly from its neutral line. Trim surface had to go down a bit to push the elevator up into a climb position. It ll be clear to you , that the maximum control moment of the elevator would be slightly reduced in it's extreme upward (climb) position, trimming surface deflecting the air-stream in the 'wrong', downward direction slightly.
So , if you trim 'UP', the effect of the elevator in the extreme upwards position would be slightly reduced.

Aha, so it does influence throw.
Funny you wrote:

As for the game-in my experience trimming does reduce the maximum throw of a control, even if that should not be so

Btw: not all planes had trim ruders, the 109/190 had some sheet metal which bent on the ground afaik.

It is more or less opposite in IL2, where trimming the elevator DOWN, for example, reduces the effectiveness of the upwards elevator, unless you pull it to the really extreme position- and nobody ever does that actually.

I'll have to check that, but...
As much as I hate to say it, I think you got a valid(your only one imho) point there.
It would also explain why using trim in IL2 reduces your turn radius.
(hear say - if it really does, that should be on the top of fixes)

[TheGrunch]

That is maybe because in one of the later patches the game's stick deflection model was changed to a force based rather than simply an absolute control deflection based one? Not sure.