Some more drawings of the FW190C

[JG27CaptStubing]

Originally Posted by Azimech

I think it's the oil cooler.

Actually it's an intercooler to keep the air going back to the turbos from Frying them...Also lowering the tempurature makes the air thicker. Interesting to see how its both Turbo Charged and SuperCharged.

[T}{OR]

Originally Posted by JG27CaptStubing

Actually it's an intercooler to keep the air going back to the turbos from Frying them...Also lowering the tempurature makes the air thicker. Interesting to see how its both Turbo Charged and SuperCharged.

TC's inter-cooler is below the cockpit - that big heat exchanger. If it indeed is the second inter-cooler it could only be related with SC, to cool the air after it passes through SC. Watch how the air/exhaust flows and how the pipeline is designed.

I would still go with the oil cooler, like Azimech said.

[swiss]

BUT:
1.
Looking at the blueprint it looks like:
SC->IC->Turbo->Intake
Which I think is odd, very odd. I would expect the highest pressure/temp rise passing the turbo.


2.
Another funny thing is the exhaust manifold and the tubing, outside the airplane.
@10K amsl you got what, -35°?
And your flying >600kph.
Now, cooling down the exhaust gases can't really add to the efficiency, or am I wrong?


Any thoughts?


EDIT:
Point one seems wrong after drawing some lines - but now the setup looks even weirder.




I mean, I would expect they bypassed the SC at some rpm level(And maybe shared the IC for it too), if my drawing are correct, it's more like Turbo->IC->SC->Intake.

[T}{OR]

Originally Posted by swiss

He was talking about the thing under the engine, which an oil to air "heat exchange device".
The big one in the belly is the IC.
Your 2nd point is right, the first one wrong, the compressed air never goes "back" to the turbo.
Also, the turbo has to deal with way higher temp(exhaust gases) then the compressed air could ever reach.
Usually it's like:
Filter(if there is)->Turbo(rise in temp due compression)->IC->Intake

Now I have to correct you on this one.

Turbine is just that - a turbine. Turbocharger is driven by the kinetic energy of exhaust gases. It does not use the same exhaust gases to feed the engine. It sucks in the same air the normal, mechanically driven supercharger would.

The only scenario where you would use (recirculated) exhaust gases is when you want to lower emissions set by certain standard (e.g. EGR valve). And this is way too modern technology for WW2.

Originally Posted by swiss

BUT:
1.
Looking at the blueprint it looks like:
SC->IC->Turbo->Intake
Which I think is odd, very odd. I would expect the highest pressure/temp rise passing the turbo.


2.
Another funny thing is the exhaust manifold and the tubing, outside the airplane.
@10K amsl you got what, -35°?
And your flying >600kph.
Now, cooling down the exhaust gases can't really add to the efficiency, or am I wrong?


Any thoughts?

I too think this would be odd. This is the way I understood it (twice as shorter route / intake manifold):

Exhaust valves / TC + fresh air => IC (for TC) => SC > engine intake valves (or manifold if you want).

[swiss]

Maybe because you misunderstood the drawing...

Red: Exhaust
light blue: fresh compressed hot air
blue: cooled down compressed air

I did not draw the point where the exhaust gases leve the system, nor the the actual intake.

Back to the 190:

Exhaust valves / TC + fresh air => IC (for TC) => SC > engine intake valves (or manifold if you want).

[T}{OR]

Originally Posted by swiss

Thanks thor, really, really, nice from you. Again, I am aware how a turbo system works.
Where, btw, did I suggest to return exhaust gases?

I honestly apologize if I offended you in any way. Please to re-read what you wrote (why I misunderstood you). Also, I just saw the drawing - which you added later on by editing the post.

Originally Posted by swiss

Maybe because you misunderstood the drawing...

Red: Exhaust
light blue: fresh compressed hot air
blue: cooled down compressed air

I did not draw the point where the exhaust gases leve the system, nor the the actual intake.

What you drew looks alright by me. Azimech also understood it like I did.

[swiss]

Great, we finally agree.


But I still dont get Turbo->SC.
It says they used an additional turbo, but nowhere a modified charger, which they probably had to, since it had to deal with altered pressure.
Also, I thought SC work with lower pressure compared to turbos.
Plus, the SC is fed with (still)hot air and heats its up again.
I have some doubts concerning efficiency, what is the SC's purpose? Reduce IC lag?

I guess I'll have to do some research.

looks similar to a p47 in concept,

Not really, the P47 just had a turbo/IC setup - but they called it "exhaust-supercharger" which adds to the confusion.
That is according to the infos I just found. I'd be more than happy to hear about a combo system.

[koivis]

Originally Posted by swiss

Not really, the P47 just had a turbo/IC setup - but they called it "exhaust-supercharger" which adds to the confusion.

Well, actually it was a similar system to Fw 190C. As far as I know, every P&W R-2800 made also had an internal supercharger mounted directly behind the engine, driven by the crankshaft. The confusing thing here is, that while the air from turbocharger went indeed to the carburetor, from there it continued to the supercharger! After that, it's of course going to cylinders. Some pictures to clarify:

P-47 Engine, supercharger in blue colour, carburetor is the black thing on top of it:


Another view, showing the duct leading to carb, blue object is the supercharger:


Rolls Royce Merlin had almost the same setup (I think most WW2 engines did), except it had an liquid cooled intercooler as the last thing before the intake. Also of note here (two stage version) is that the air is cooled between the stages too!


Hope this helps, I get sometimes confused with this technology too.

[Tempest123]

Interesting, looks simililar to a p47 in concept, i would guess that cooling down the exhaust just allowed lower temps in the turbo parts, maybe better for extended use? What was the range of the 190c, was it a short range interceptor?

[Azimech]

No, the supercharger on the DB60x series is fitted directly to the intake manifold.

The path is Air-Turbo-Intercooler-Supercharger-Intake-Exhaust-Turbo-Air

The amount of energy in the exhaust gasses is so tremendous that even flying with -50 C hardly cools it, and the pressure remains high until the gas has expanded behind the turbo.

Edit: Thor was sooner