Ethics of pilots fighting for the sides in WWII

[Splitter]

Interesting.

Is this US chest beating or frustration at European pacifism?

It's very clear from the posts that a bunch of people here believe it is never right to fight. Or that one should only fight on their own territory. And that diplomacy works with fanatics.

The world you live in is better than mine. I respect your idealism, please forgive my realism.

I guess this pacifist feeling is left over from fighting two large sale wars in the past century. Neville would be proud. Peace at any cost is noble.

Ok, we get it.

My prediction: When a major terrorist attack occurs in Europe (Spain and England are the most probable targets), the peace protests will break out within 48 hours. Critics will blame the USA for driving the terrorists to their actions.

Oh, we'll sympathize with your plight (been there). Heck, we'll even send aid and help you rebuild. We'll even offer our assistance in going to get the perpetrators or those that enabled them. Britain will be on a war footing, most of the rest of Europe will want to analyze and negotiate. The UN will pass resolutions condemning the terrorists and....nothing.

Splitter

[MrBaato]

Originally Posted by Splitter

My prediction: When a major terrorist attack occurs in Europe (Spain and England are the most probable targets), the peace protests will break out within 48 hours. Critics will blame the USA for driving the terrorists to their actions.

What are you talking about, there have been major terrorist attacks in Spain and England

And who should you be fighting, terrorists are often people living in a western country preparing an attack in their own neighbourhood
You cant stop that bombing afghan caves...

[Splitter]

Originally Posted by MrBaato

What are you talking about, there have been major terrorist attacks in Spain and England

When one incident kills thousands, then we will see what their answer is, I guess, because so far they have done little (though it is important to note that the UK has been the closest ally in the war on terror).

And who should you be fighting, terrorists are often people living in a western country preparing an attack in their own neighbourhood
You cant stop that bombing afghan caves...

Sure you can. That guy plotting in his basement is probably alone, probably unstable, and probably doesn't have access to chemical, biological, or radioactive weapons. Take away his conduit to those resources and the damage he can do is probably limited.

BTW....just how should we go after and find that guy plotting in his basement? Should we do nothing? Is capitulation the answer?

It's easy to criticize, much harder to come up with solutions.

Splitter

[SEE]

But why are people plotting? You can kill individuals, destroy towns anhilate an entire region but defeating an 'idea' is impossible. The state of Israel was borne from 'terrorism' with acts of terrorism plotted and carried out not least against the British Army. 'Terrorism' is a tactical strategy to a political end. Israeli, IRA, Basque separists, French Resistance, Al-Quaeda, Taliban, etc use subversive tacitcs that we brand as 'terrorism' and essentially for the same reasons.
The West should and must do more to give Palestine its freedom and, make no mistake, the Taliban will be offered some political control over Afghanistan. It is already recognised that we cannot defeat them militarily but to continue the hostility and try to force them into the political arena.

[Theshark888]

Originally Posted by SEE

The West should and must do more to give Palestine its freedom

Come on now...the PLO had it's chance when Clinton was in office with the Oslo peace accords. So close...it is really a shame. Remember the West does support Palestine. Also remember that the USA did not create Israel or be the cause of it's creation either

What you have stated sounds a lot like appeasement to me! Did you not learn from the history of Europe in the 1930's?? The USA sure did and that is why we land up being the world's policeman

[Splitter]

Originally Posted by SEE

But why are people plotting? You can kill individuals, destroy towns anhilate an entire region but defeating an 'idea' is impossible. The state of Israel was borne from 'terrorism' with acts of terrorism plotted and carried out not least against the British Army. 'Terrorism' is a tactical strategy to a political end. Israeli, IRA, Basque separists, French Resistance, Al-Quaeda, Taliban, etc use subversive tacitcs that we brand as 'terrorism' and essentially for the same reasons.
The West should and must do more to give Palestine its freedom and, make no mistake, the Taliban will be offered some political control over Afghanistan. It is already recognised that we cannot defeat them militarily but to continue the hostility and try to force them into the political arena.

So you would advocate for capitulation.

I would say it is a fallacy that an "idea" cannot be beaten. The superiority of the Aryan race was an idea that was defeated. The superiority of the Japanese people and their "destiny" to rule Asia was an idea that was defeated. "Death to non believers" is an idea that can be defeated.

Thank you for your views on Israel, they are telling. Thank you also for legitimizing the use of terror tactics as a logical means to an end. Again, that is telling. The moral equivalencies you see are chilling, but I thank you for your honesty.

BTW, the Palestinians will never have a homeland that would satisfy those who hate Israel. The only solution that would satisfy people of that mind would be to wipe out Israel....hmmmm....sounds chillingly familiar. As long as Israel exists (and let's face it, that means as long as the Jews have a homeland, right?) the Palestinians will continue to be used as pawns by those who would seek to destroy Israel and, thus, the Jews.

Or....we all make such a mindset untenable.

Splitter

[WTE_Galway]

Originally Posted by Splitter

The superiority of the Aryan race was an idea that was defeated. The superiority of the Japanese people and their "destiny" to rule Asia was an idea that was defeated. "

You really need to study the facts more.

Eugenics and racial superiority was a tenant of National Socialism.

The issue in Japan was the rise of Militarism. In particular the principle that civilians had no right interfering in military affairs. There was also the belief that if a country/culture had the strongest army that was proof that the morals and philosophy of that country were superior.

They are quite different.

Whilst often accused of Fascism, of the two, the 21st century United States is far closer to the views of Japanese Militarism than it is to National Socialism.

[Splitter]

No Galway, apparently you need to study the facts more. Or take the blinders off. I'm not sure which prompted your response, you are usually not like that. You know that eugenics and racism were not exclusive to the Nazis. Heck, I am sure you are itching to point out how the US sent Japanese to concentration camps (without the torture, starvation, ovens, and gas chambers but still, admittedly, racist).

First hint is chancorro. A very similar term was used by the Nazis. I think we could agree that racism was practiced by the Nazis leading up to and during WWII, yes?

This term and a perversion of the practice of Shinto (normally a very peaceful religion) led to the atrocities committed by the Japanese military. These atrocities were every bit as sickening as what was done in the Nazi concentration camps.

Now....you call it militarism. It was used and encouraged by the military, but the bottom line is that it was a belief in racial superiority. It was a view that the Japanese were superior as a race and anything done to the the lesser races was fine because they were "chancorro". The Japanese were created by the Sun Goddess (or God, I forget which). I am fairly sure that is symbolized by the rising sun, but don't quote me on it.

Your last barb made me lol. (c'mon, you're better than that)

Splitter

[swiss]

Originally Posted by Splitter

"Death to non believers" is an idea that can be defeated.

You really believe that?
(Well, maybe, I'll get to it later)

BTW, the Palestinians will never have a homeland that would satisfy those who hate Israel

Maybe - maybe not. I think it's worth a try.
There two problems which have to be solved.
1st:
Stop building Jewish construction on conquered land.
(If you did that my country I'd bomb you too)
http://www.leedspsc.org.uk/?page_id=23


2nd:
Solve economical problems.
If you let them develop some level of prosperity, their interest to fight the Jews next door will decrease too.
(Yes I now, the Palestinians, and Israelis, involved in the back market will actually fight this idea)
- Make sure they get a working trading harbor
- Give them access to an airport, maybe build them a small one
- a "land bridge" to the gaza strip wouldn't hurt either


And: Make sure they learn to read and write. illiterates are way easier to manipulate than ppl who can fall back to different sources of information.
First ones have to believe all the crap you tell them.
This last point would also serve in Afghanistan and Afrika. In Afghanistan they are at least trying.
This way, maybe, you can also fight the "death to infidels" ideology.

Sure you can. That guy plotting in his basement is probably alone, probably unstable, and probably doesn't have access to chemical, biological, or radioactive weapons. Take away his conduit to those resources and the damage he can do is probably limited.

Seriously, you really think they are stockpiling "chemical, biological, or radioactive weapons" in their f***ing caves?


If you really want to cut their resources, you'll have to stop using oil, that's where the big money comes from. The opium in Afghanistan probably can only finance their domestic operations.

We see, we cant cut their money flow off, concerning their ABC weapons you'll have to rely on intel.
(waterboarding is ok as far as I am concerned, personally I'd go even further)

[moilami]

Originally Posted by Splitter

Sure you can. That guy plotting in his basement is probably alone, probably unstable, and probably doesn't have access to chemical, biological, or radioactive weapons. Take away his conduit to those resources and the damage he can do is probably limited.

BTW....just how should we go after and find that guy plotting in his basement? Should we do nothing? Is capitulation the answer?

It's easy to criticize, much harder to come up with solutions.

Splitter

You have finally realized there is nothing much you can do against modern querilla warfare? It took long. I bet it would had helped if you first asked Germans about French underground movement and RAF, Spanish about ETA, Italians about Mafia, British about IRA, and Israelis about PLO.

You Americans have this problem that you think you can just declare a war and get what you want. However you failed in War against drugs, you failed in Vietnam, and you fail in Afghanistan and Iraq.

No, this is not "hindsight". I have said this 10 years ago. I said also it was anyway clever move by you to begin to cry for help by stating "if you are not with us, you are against us" or whatever bullshit it was. Governments around Europe felt the need to show how "terrorism is not tolerated" in addition to begin to be colonialism wannabees in the name of "international co-operation". However anyone who has read Theory of Games and Economic Behavior by John von Neumann and Oskar Morgenstern knew modern querilla warfare would move to Europe as a result, and therefore EU should not participate on a fight it can't even engage with conventional warfare.

So, you got the oil and we got the xxxx. Things went as planned. Bush also got his second season as your president, weapon companies and military got more money and relevant shareholders become richer. Talk about who won the war. But who lost the war? Common people around Europe, USA, Iraq, and Afghanistan, to name a few. Yeah, that is you.