Daidalos Team's Room -QUESTIONS AND REQUESTS ONLY on IL2 Authorized Addons

[Viikate]

Originally Posted by I/ZG52_HaDeS

And you confirmed that i was right about the 20mm sniper-gun. Thank you for this.

No, you are wrong. The "sniper effect" happens with all guns and it has nothing to do with the maxDeltaAngle.

Originally Posted by I/ZG52_HaDeS

So it is Perfectly OK Bombs of the SAME "family", having the SAME weight to have 3+ times greater effective radius?

So all bombs with same weight belong to same family by your logic? German SC bombs are thin wall high-explosive bombs that kill with blast effect. Not with sharapnels. I recall that most of the allied bombs kill also with shrapnels so their effective radius should be naturally bigger. Isn't this issues something that have been discussed at UBI forums countless of times?

How many people have actually whined about the pylon mass bug during all the IL-2 years? I haven't seen any complaints, since weight != drag . Probably the biggest effect that is has is making for example Seafire with rockets too heavy and carrier take-off is more difficult.

Oh... maybe the 0kg value was a "place holder" value. That would make it prefectly ok, right?

[Flanker35M]

S!

Read thru this thread and posting some thoughts. IL-2 is a great game, but not without flaws/bugs/features. Some have been known for ages, but yet to be corrected. Some are game engine limitations and the rest falls in whatever category. TD has taken over patching IL-2 and many of you are either longtime fans of IL-2, ex-IL-2 team members(SaqSoN?) etc. So you SHOULD have the insight how IL-2 works and how it has been all this time. So...

Maybe TD should consult some military EOD/Armament personnel to get their facts right and more info about bombs and/or armament. If you REALLY claim that a SC1000(or any bomb of that size regardless country) with effective 600kg+ of TNT blowing up has a range of less than 200m then really you know nothing about bombs or explosives in general. The bombs could use a check, ALL of them to make sure. Not only the Germans but ALL. Clear enough? Claiming things without checking and back-up, that is just empty words.

I can give an example. In an EOD excercise we blew up a charge of 2.5Kg consisting of PETN. The blast could be felt at 300m, a clear blast wave that moved clothing. And that was a mere 2.5Kg equal some 4.66kg of TNT. So try to imagine 600kg+ TNT exploding that near. You would be dead and things near you blown away. So please, check the bombs. Please?

Since day 1 in IL-2 the Russian guns have had smallest dispersion of ALL guns except the TIE twin lasers on I-16 or I-153 that have some of it. It was, and still is, childishly easy to kill a running Bf109 with a Yak-1b's 20mm cannon by sniping off as you need to take very little lead to get a hit even up to extreme ranges. This on FinskaViken1 server before the "mod episode" came up, squad flew as reds to show that the Bf109G-2 was not that superior after all

I would be extremely happy to see TD fixing bugs more first than adding a heap of new content, which can cause new bugs thus adding to the workload big enough already. You got the tools for it, use them.

[Kwiatek]

Yea but DT if even would like to change something they first need to accept changes from 1C.

I really really doubt that they will ever get agreement from 1C ( Oleg M.) in such case which could affect any russian plane or weapon.

After above 10 years of these game, many discuss in many forums i have not any doubt that many things in game were balanced against historical realism.

Truly speaking who would like to fly early-mid war russian planes when they would be made with more historical and realistic performacne regarding fact that Il2 was primary designed for Russian market?

[I/ZG52_HaDeS]

Originally Posted by AndyJWest

So the question comes down to whether we should expect TD to make changes based on cherry-picked data, because some people think there is a conspiracy to boost certain nations' aircraft?

Hardly. Who talked about "cherry-picked" data. And this does not affect the German planes or guns/bombs. The soviet Pylons concern the Soviet planes and not the German, right? Also the .50s caliber are way more weak than the UBs 12mm machine guns. If you want to check a plane that has at leat "weird" Damage Model check the SM-79. Try to bring it down, compare it with other contemporary planes, and read any data you could find.

Originally Posted by AndyJWest

So much for objectivity.

I presented data while you have not. This doesn't make you more "objective".

Originally Posted by JtD

Team Daidalos does not fix stuff because it looks wrong, but when correct data is provided and it contradicts current game values. What's the point in balancing stuff instead of fixing it?

I never said about balance. I have always talked about Fixing it.

Originally Posted by JtD

Simple question related to the example: Which bomb is wrong - the FAB 1000 or the SC 1000? Or both? What would you want TD to do without knowing the proper values? Guessing? In the worst case you end up with even more wrong values.

I just asked something that looks wrong. You can find generic bomb blast range/damage data but its hard to find for these specific bombs.
I just question myself on how should be such a huge difference between bombs of the same category, same weight.

I have not found any account to stress this huge difference for these bombs.

And how would i want to fix this stuff since not exact data is available? Well, i'll say something like the following:

The 7.62 mm Browning machine guns were almost equal with the 7.62mm ShKAS in terms of damage and penetration ability. As you can see from here:
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/Historic%20MGs.htm

They have almost the same muzzle velocity and muzzle energy.

The ShKAS are slightly stronger for about less than 10%.
In game though they have almost twice the penetration ability of the 7.62 browning ones. Instead of probably 10. 20 or 30%
Just do the following "experiment":

Try to make a bomber to caught fire with a plane armed with the brownings like a Hurrie or Spit and try the same with a plane armed with the ShKAS like the I-16 or I-153.

You will be amazed how easily the ShKAS will cause fire and increased damage compared with the Brownings.

How could this be "Fixed"? Well, you can always inspect/judge the data values for the same category gun so maybe increasing the penetration ability of the brownings to be closer wouldn't be such a mistake, should it?
Since the muzzle vellocity and muzzle energy differ in less than 10% perhaps if you adjust the brownings to have the 80-90% the penetration value of the ShKAS you would be inside the 5% general accepted error.
Is it a "Biased" and wrong logic?

Originally Posted by Viikate

No, you are wrong. The "sniper effect" happens with all guns and it has nothing to do with the maxDeltaAngle.

Nope, you are Just change the delta angle and fly again. No matter if the gunner is Ace or not, you'll get significant less headshots.
The delta angle error ALSO plays significant role in this aspect.

Originally Posted by Viikate

So all bombs with same weight belong to same family by your logic? German SC bombs are thin wall high-explosive bombs that kill with blast effect. Not with sharapnels. I recall that most of the allied bombs kill also with shrapnels so their effective radius should be naturally bigger.

The German iron bombs also had the sharpnel "effect":
The following are from the SC German bombs:
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c9...7/P5200004.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c9...7/P5200005.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c9...7/P5200006.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c9...7/P5200007.jpg

Originally Posted by Viikate

How many people have actually whined about the pylon mass bug during all the IL-2 years? I haven't seen any complaints, since weight != drag . Probably the biggest effect that is has is making for example Seafire with rockets too heavy and carrier take-off is more difficult.

Oh... maybe the 0kg value was a "place holder" value. That would make it prefectly ok, right?

You didn't answer what kind of data you used to make all the previously weighted 150 kgs pylons to weight 15 kilos.
And you didn't also answer what are you going to do for the Zero weight pylons.

Cheers

[JtD]

Originally Posted by I/ZG52_HaDeS

I never said about balance. I have always talked about Fixing it.

You said it can't be that bomb A has a larger blast radius than bomb B without backing that claim up with research data. So you want to change values because you don't like them, without knowing the correct ones. So you're certainly not talking about fixing it.

I just asked something that looks wrong. You can find generic bomb blast range/damage data but its hard to find for these specific bombs.

Well, then I guess you start looking. And when you found relevant data, you post it, and there's a good chance for change.

And for what it's worth, I agree with your point of view that there's little reason to justify the blast radius difference. What I don't agree with is changing values without knowing the proper ones.

[robtek]

Where is the data to proof the original in game data is right?
While i trust OM and his crew thats not enough here, me thinks.
If there is no data to find one should use logic.
To defend the ingame data without proof doesn't work.
my 2 cents.

[stugumby]

1. Weapons arming/safety switches implemented into the controls section, to include an intervalometer and jettison without arming for bombs. (in video for jettison i think)

2. Drop tanks having a selector switch, from wings at take off to drop tanks and back to wings to jettison drop tanks.

3. Bomb bay doors in controls section for open and close. (exists in mods)

4. Do something about the He-111 taxi dance for ground handling, did it really have that much torque??

5. An updated pilots cockpit guide with an included rpm and pitch section with basic data.

[Viikate]

Originally Posted by I/ZG52_HaDeS

The German iron bombs also had the sharpnel "effect":
The following are from the SC German bombs:
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c9...7/P5200004.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c9...7/P5200005.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c9...7/P5200006.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c9...7/P5200007.jpg

Then this proves my point perfectly and shows that German SCs were NOT pre-fragmented from inside the body to produce thousands of small fragments that cover larger areas and can cause damage way beyond the ranges of the blast effect. You pics shows huge chunks of the body and not fragments. Sure they would kill, but they don't cover any big are and wont fly as far small ones.

[Gryphon_]

Originally Posted by Viikate

So all bombs with same weight belong to same family by your logic? German SC bombs are thin wall high-explosive bombs that kill with blast effect. Not with sharapnels.

Don't agree with that, sorry. If these weights are accurate:

__________________Fab1000___________SC1000
Weight of HE_______555 kg___________630 kg
Weight of Bomb___1000 kg__________1090 kg

...then both bombs are roughly 60% HE and 40% casing, which makes them blast fragmentation munitions. Pretty much all air delivered bombs are, apart from fuel-air munitions that don't use frag at all, and use different explosive material, and work on a different principle.

My only comment on the radius issue if that given the weight of frag material and HE is roughly the same, you'd need a huge step-up in HE specific power to extend the lethal radius (to a common damage criteria) out by a factor of three. The only 'historical data' needed to settle this issue is the nature of the HE mixes used by the FAB and SC series. If the specific powers are similar, than one is way wrong.

I discourage posting too much info on this topic, specifically any effectiveness calcs. Even if you know the science of all this, keep it offline please as this knowledge kills people everyday.