Friday 2010-12-03 Dev. update and Discussion

[T}{OR]

A very interesting update. Thank you.

Few questions related to the bomber formations, in comparison with IL2 as you requested:

Under "Object/Group Properties":

• How many planes per flight? 5 planes are needed for a VEE which Luftwaffe used a lot.
• If the answer to the above question is more than 5, then is the limit of planes per squadron limited to 12 or perhaps more?
• Am I right in assuming that whole squadron can now fly in one close formation?
• What types of bomber formations will be implemented? To my understanding Luftwaffe used mostly 3 plane VIC and 5 plane VEE's, either in line astern or (almost) line abreast to one another...
• Can more squadrons form one large formation? If not, can one be set as lead for others to follow it (to avoid setting way points for each formation)?

Thanks.

---

From a bomber pilot's view, formations were the biggest let down for me in IL2. Setting up a 5 plane VEE formation was impossible. Not to mention the complex USAAF formations used later in the war. Second was the team killing AI gunners that nullified the whole purpose of bombers flying close formations in the first place...

[ECV56_Lancelot]

Originally Posted by T}{OR

[*]What types of bomber formations will be implemented? To my understanding Luftwaffe used mostly 3 plane VIC and 5 plane VEE's, either in line astern or (almost) line abreast to one another...
...

I'm not expert, but for what i read, it was the other way around, and Luftwaffe used four plane four finger formations while the RAF used the three planes formation, and later changed to four planes.
I could be mistaken though, its something that happened when i started to follow this forums.

[SlipBall]

Very interesting Fri up-date...I was hoping that the up-dates would drift away from the usual, and reveal some of the features of the game. This up-date has delivered some of that and I like what I see. The weather map I find to be the most interesting, and I would like to get a look at it. Should be very cool to cir cum-navigate a frontal system that may have 50 thousand foot high thunderstorm column

[jippy13]

The shots were interesting...we learned a little more about the final release game .

But is it possible to download the demo version that we saw at Igromir show. I think it would help fans to wait more calmly the final release and it would be usefull for bob's team to get fans' feedbacks about the demo version.

Oleg, I hope you read my message and understand me

[smink1701]

I never used the FMB in 1946 because when I tried it didnt work...too complicated. I am an offline player only. Has anyone ever done a poll to see how many people fly online, offline and use things like FMB?

[skyfox]

Originally Posted by smink1701

I never used the FMB in 1946 because when I tried it didnt work...too complicated. FMB?

You are missing out on one of the best features of the game and yes, lots of people use the FMB. If we were relegated to using the default coops only, it would get pretty boring.
Have a look at this tutorial link for some very useful info on using the FMB. It's not that hard once you get the hang of it.
http://www.il2-fullmissionbuilder.com/index.php

[Stiboo]

At last some pics of the FMB, thank you Oleg,

First impressions -

Numbered waypoints is a very good idea, I often get confused when i'm plotting multiple wayoints close together, and I like the large round circles for the waypoints - don't forget you can zoom very close for pinpoint placing.

So a Squadron has 4 flights...how many squadrons can we have? and how many planes in a flight?....this is one of the biggest problems I have in campaign building in IL2 never having enough planes!

Showing the weight of the plane is another good idea and will make it easier to understand how a plane handles in various configurations.


Things I would very much like to know - please please Oleg

What are mission parameters?

In the object list showing the airfields, if you click on the object does this take you to the object on the map?

In the plane list, are the missing planes - Avro, Arado and Autogyro?

Also on the plane list, what does ' -tech- ' mean?

Inbetweening? Does this mean between 2 waypoints?

Weathering - how many levels of weathering are there and does this vary depending on the plane?

On the display filter, no artillery or AA? What filter are they under?

For the airfields - how many default objects are already placed? or do we have to place every object ourselves?

What does process Roads and Straight spline do?

In the folders screen it shows ' D:\bob.. ' - So 'Battle Of Britain' part of the official game title ?

How many skill levels are there for the a.i. ?

What is the release date? .... thought I would sneak this one in the list!!!






Thanks Oleg + crew

[blackjack04]

In 1946 there only appeared to be 2 types of symbol to show a dual or single runway. On one of the maps in Oleg's update something was listed about 'Spline Road Runway'. Not sure what this is. Presuming we can add runways, or not, would like to see different symbols for the various types of air strip, field, port and weather it is dirt, grass or concrete and if it has single, dual or cross runways. The symbol on the map should be rotated to align with the placement on the map of that particular airport. Concrete runways should perhaps show a number.
Getting closer guys.

[trashcanman]

A minor point but Heathrow was called Great Western Aerodrome in 1940.

FMB looks great, superb details.

Lancelot, THOR was asking about bomber formations.

[T}{OR]

Originally Posted by ECV56_Lancelot

I'm not expert, but for what i read, it was the other way around, and Luftwaffe used four plane four finger formations while the RAF used the three planes formation, and later changed to four planes.
I could be mistaken though, its something that happened when i started to follow this forums.

There is a clear distinction between bomber and fighter formations.


Lets talk about fighter formations first:

According to Wikipedia the Luftwaffe was the first to use a finger four formation in World War II. This tactic consisted of two pairs (Rotte) flying together (in a Schwarm): the leader and his wingman, and leader's "deputy" and his wingman. This gave them an advantage over outdated 3 plane VIC's that RAF flew in the beginning which required all three planes firing at the bombers, and while in formation at the same time (for "added punch" of all their guns combined).

As anyone who has ever flown in formation will tell you: when in a formation you're not flying at your top speed, and your maneuvers are strictly limited. Needles to say, this outdated 3 plane VIC attack strategy was invented by someone had no idea on how to attack a bomber stream. Logically, the tactic was abandoned in favor of the finger four formations and flying in pairs (and not attacking while flying in formation, naturally).

I would be interested to know when it was abandoned, prior or during BoB - because it might be another cool feature we could see in SoW - 3 plane VIC's attacking bombers...


Anyway, back to the bomber formations. Lets discuss basics:

• A bomber stream usually consist of many groups flying in formation.
• A group (Gruppe) formation consists of several squadrons (Staffel) flying together, or just a single squadron.
• A group/squadron formation consist of elements. Element (Kette) is a basic formation, and depending how Elements are arranged one to another and in relation to the leader - defines a formation type.
• Elements can number from 3 to (usually) 7 planes or even more.
• The smallest element is a 3 plane VIC formation with one plane flying on each wing of the leader. Small elements can form larger elements.

So, we are talking about Elements here.

Bombers depended on their defensive guns - the goal was to put as many defensive guns on each side of the formation, and to spread them out evenly. Therefore a finger four would be an incomplete formation for an element, and you would need to add another plane to it. In other words - you need a VEE formation with 2 planes on each wing of the leader.

From my understanding, some of the formation types Luftwaffe used were:

• 5 plane VEE formations (Elements) stacked one behind and below another (~5 such VEE's forming a group). With more groups flying nearby (i.e. one on each side of the lead group).
• 3 plane VIC formations (smaller elements), stacked closely behind and below one (forming a large element), with other large elements flying on each side of the lead one - all together forming a group.
• 3 plane VIC formations (smaller elements), with additional elements on each side of the lead element (forming a large element), with other such elements flying behind or behind and below one another.

^^
The last one (just a large element) or a bomber Schwärme with 3 plane VIC formations (smaller elements or Kette), we were able to see in preview videos released so far.


I hope that this answers your question why I am interested in what is the limit on how many planes per element and what kind of formations will bombers fly in SoW.


This is something we were never able to experience in IL2 as the limit per element was only 4 planes. While IIRC (I never played the game) Rowan's Battle of Britain: Wings of Victory simulates this very nicely.