Ethics of pilots fighting for the sides in WWII

[WTE_Galway]

Well as they say "History is written by the victors."

Interestingly the German soldiers of the time are now criticized for obeying orders and fighting for the Nazi's, apparently they should have realized fascism is immoral and surrendered at the first opportunity.

Meanwhile the Italian's (especially the more illiterate farming conscripts with no enthusiasm for fascism Hitler or Mussolini) are criticized for surrendering too easily and lacking fighting spirit.

Sooooo ... apparently the Germans should have surrendered more often and the Italians less often ... go figure.

[Romanator21]

But it doesn't change the fact that a lot of good people and innocents were killed by German pilots fighting the war. It also doesn't change the fact that they were fighting on behalf of a nation which had a horrible and inhumane regime that was simultaneously conducting horrible crimes.

Does the name Stalin mean anything to you?

[Avimimus]

Originally Posted by Romanator21

Does the name Stalin mean anything to you?

Yes, a great deal. However, it would have been worse (for everyone) if the other side had won. I'm eternally grateful to those who stopped the German armies - regardless of how disagreeable the current Tsar may have been.

[IceFire]

Remember that history is written largely by the victors and that slants the debate in such things. That said everyone has been fairly even handed in the discussion and left things open for a very good debate. Great job guys!

This is a complex issue but I think that in any war scenario that you consider - there are always going to be young men (and women) sent off to war to fight for their country and they believe the thing they are doing is right. The higher level moral ethics aren't always as easy to figure out when you're in the middle of all of that.

I feel that in many cases there were what I would call "professional soldiers" fighting on either side of the conflict. They do kill for their country but there is a honor code amongst these individuals. There were also some real crazies out there who probably very much enjoyed every moment of it. Nobody has exclusivity on either of these extremes...

[Ltbear]

awsome subject, but why i fly axis mostly is kinda not interesting. Way back in the CFS1 and CFS2 days there where werry few axis pilots, so i flew with the JG 26 in cfs 1 and when cfs 2 came around i jumped to the 6th kokutai, and realy never looked back.

But now after my return i stil love the pacific, but i just feel alot more fun in the P-36 and the P-40 in the PTO....realy dunno why....have been a zeke driver for a looong time. but now the "hawks" kinda interests me instead....

About the topic....in general (remember i said general) i think you can se the aviators as the sub crews. They are a tool of war with not much politics. Even the Japanese pilots had abit more higher standard than most of the rest of the IJN / IJA. Think it comes down to how special you were in general as a pilot.

Millitary pilots even today have a small thing about them. I was on training (leapard two) in Germany, hooked up with a few German personel we whent to town. Had an awsome talk with a "dame" told her i was a "tanker" etc, then doing the talk one of the "jerrys" comes by sits with us mention hes a pilot and that "dame" was lost to me....lol....cool to be a tanker, but wings get you girls.....

[leggit]

one of the best threads i've read on this forum....great stuff

[Oktoberfest]

I've read that book from Guy Sajer. He was a drafted french from annexed Alsace in a logistical regiment of the Wehrmacht on the Eastern Front.The bbok covers his war experience from december 42 (he was 16...) to his surrender in 1945. It's amazing what this guy went through and survived...

The funny fact is that because of the propaganda he received on the front, he was persuaded that the french army was actually coming to help them fight the soviets nearly till the end of the war... Go figure, as was said, no means of information for the common Joe on the front.

I respect people who fought honorably in this war, on all sides. Not their leaders, as war is usually the massacre of young people that don't know each other for the sake of old people who don't fight and know each other.

I'm french, and my oldest friend is a german. I can't imagine what would've happened if we had met 70 years earlier.

[PeterPanPan]

What a great thread and so uplifting that it is being treated thoughtfully and with respect ... and has somehow stayed on topic and rant free. Well done all.

My own position re IL2 is that I only fly for the Allies. I have flown some German or Japanese a/c out of curiosity, but in actual combat, I'm just not comfortable with flying for the 'enemy'. I have always found it interesting to consider the reasons why some choose to fly Axis a/c and this thread is throwing some light on that.

PPanPan

[ATAG_Dutch]

I'm a hypocrite.
I will not fly a Nazi German plane in a mission offline or online, unless testing a new map or the red team is full, and largely for moral reasons.
On the other hand I will fly japanese planes, because american fighters are hopelessly unmanoeverable and for straight lines only. Like American motorbikes.
I do like to fly american bombers though.

However I think I'm right in thinking that like every German soldier, every German pilot had to swear personal allegiance to Adolf Hitler.
They may have said, 'well yes we did but we had to', but they still flew around with a big swastika on their tails.
I can't bring myself to do that.

Sorry if this sounds like rubbish, but I've had a couple.

PS. Never post when drunk

[WTE_Galway]

Originally Posted by Dutch_851

I'm a hypocrite.

However I think I'm right in thinking that like every German soldier, every German pilot had to swear personal allegiance to Adolf Hitler.

Indeed:

"Ich schwöre bei Gott diesen heiligen Eid, daß ich dem Führer des Deutschen Reiches und Volkes Adolf Hitler, dem Oberbefehlshaber der Wehrmacht, unbedingten Gehorsam leisten und als tapferer Soldat bereit sein will, jederzeit für diesen Eid mein Leben einzusetzen."


"I swear by God this sacred oath that I shall render unconditional obedience to Adolf Hitler, the Führer of the German Reich, supreme commander of the armed forces, and that I shall at all times be prepared, as a brave soldier, to give my life for this oath."


However that is not quite the same as the Waffen SS which required "Aryan ancestry and National-Socialist beliefs ":

http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt07/waffen-ss.html