Melee Monster Mash Build?

[BB Shockwave]

I used a full-Lizardman army in AP - Tirex for tanks, Gorguls for main damage dealers, Gorguana as support units/curses enemies, Brontors as tanks or ranged attackers, and Hayterants for summoners/hit and run.

Your Paladin line-up is good too... I am currently doing a 3 melee/2 ranged mostly-human army walkthrough on Hard with my Paladin: Paladins, Horsemen, Royal Griffins, Archmages and Rune Mages.

[ckdamascus]

Ah, looks like a single race can have a fairly healthy mix of units.

I am so used to using the neutrals like dragons and trolls (I love them). Trolls are so grossly powerful especially with that ogre club.

After doing the math, it looks pretty bad for the Paladin class.

Even with the +40% damage, a warrior with the right items, will out damage the Paladin using paladins, but has more flexibility due to triple weapon slots.

I really really really want to use orcs or demons this time around.

Undead look a little more interesting, but alas, the idea of using eviln bores me to the bone. (No pun intended).

Rune mages seem to be a necessity for my party though.

Can someone still give me a reason to use the Paladin Class? I would like to run with a blonde heroine, but I see no compelling reason. I'm not interested in the solo stack / revive or the one man armageddon trick either.

Aieeee.

[BB Shockwave]

Originally Posted by ckdamascus

Ah, looks like a single race can have a fairly healthy mix of units.

I am so used to using the neutrals like dragons and trolls (I love them). Trolls are so grossly powerful especially with that ogre club.

And the Ogre sandals. They are a must, if you fight during the day.

After doing the math, it looks pretty bad for the Paladin class.

Even with the +40% damage, a warrior with the right items, will out damage the Paladin using paladins, but has more flexibility due to triple weapon slots.

What items? The drill is one, but I did not use it much - it decreases speed (or initiative?) which is not a good thing.

I really really really want to use orcs or demons this time around.

- Oh yeah, my next walkthrough will be with elves, but afterwards it's an all-demon army for me too (and Demonologists, of course).

Undead look a little more interesting, but alas, the idea of using eviln bores me to the bone. (No pun intended).

I played them in the Legend with a little "cheating modding" to get no-loss: I created a new "Raise Dead" spell from the useless spell "Last Hero" which functions the same way as Resurrection, but only works on Undead and is a Chaos spell. I think it'd work in AP too. Evlins are indeed complicated to use for resurrection, specially for slow troops who have no dead bodies next to them.

Can someone still give me a reason to use the Paladin Class? I would like to run with a blonde heroine, but I see no compelling reason. I'm not interested in the solo stack / revive or the one man armageddon trick either.

I'd never go with a solo stack myself. IT's the equivalent of someone in HOMM running around with nothing but 7 stacks of Black Dragons, casting armageddon. You can do it, but where's the fun in that? I like playing the whole game with one unit setup, in order to test every unit against every other unit. One day I'll write an unit guide...

Back to your question - the Paladin has some great skills, and the Mind runes to use them.
-Adrenaline is a very, very neat thing to have, and it works every round regardless of combat fatigue. Can make your slow units like Knights or Droids get to the enemy much faster. It's random, sure, but it's always nice to have.
- Resurrection. It helps you minimize losses, plus it increases the Rune Mage's similar ability now!
-Holy Armor (new skill) - Again, helps to reduce damage taken by your units, saving those 5-th level units from dying very often.
-Holy Anger: Not only do Demons on Lava have less defense/attack now, but this great skill makes you gain mana and rage by the dozen on every hit you make against Demons and Undead! And you'll meet these enemies quite often!
-The Power of Spirit - gives you Attack AND defense for less might runes then the Might skills. Two in one!
-Neatness: free runes and crystals from those not needed items! Need I say more?
-Persuasion/Voice of the Dragon: gives morale to troops you could not increase morale otherwise (neutrals, Demons) and what's more - frees up your artifact slots so that you can use better items instead of morale boosters.
-Glory: Early on, Leadership is vital, and the paladin can take this the easiest.
-Learning: Again, makes you gain XP faster, and a paladin can get this easier.

Plus, the medals: Purifier is easy to get and raises defence, while Holy Warrior is again, not hard to get (I am level 9 and already have II. level) and makes Inquisitors/Paladins much more potent.

The regalia artifacts the Paladin is so fond of can be quite usefull, but even if not, he can still use shields/belts/artifacts instead of them.

[ckdamascus]

Originally Posted by BB Shockwave

And the Ogre sandals. They are a must, if you fight during the day.

Which did not spawn in my new warrior game (grrr).

Originally Posted by BB Shockwave

What items? The drill is one, but I did not use it much - it decreases speed (or initiative?) which is not a good thing.

The Drill, Battle Axe, Inquisitor, plus the +6750 leadership bonus warriors have over paladins.

It ends up being really close with the warrior barely edging out. If you want to stick with paladins, inquisitors, and rune mages, I agree that the paladin's resurrection skill helps that.

Originally Posted by BB Shockwave

- Resurrection. It helps you minimize losses, plus it increases the Rune Mage's similar ability now!

-Holy Armor (new skill) - Again, helps to reduce damage taken by your units, saving those 5-th level units from dying very often.

-The Power of Spirit - gives you Attack AND defense for less might runes then the Might skills. Two in one!

-Persuasion/Voice of the Dragon: gives morale to troops you could not increase morale otherwise (neutrals, Demons) and what's more - frees up your artifact slots so that you can use better items instead of morale boosters.

The regalia artifacts the Paladin is so fond of can be quite usefull, but even if not, he can still use shields/belts/artifacts instead of them.

I agree with resurrection, but I really don't to feel stuck with paladin/inquisitor/rune mage.

I get some of those skills even as a mage! Of course they are good, but nothing really super super super necessary unless you are specializing for dragons.

Hmmm you can't raise a normal neutral (like a troll) with persuasion, right? Just the dragons at level 3 Voice?

I will miss the holy armor.

Another reason I want to go with the warrior is the flexibility for different builds. So far it looks like I can get a reasonably decent "shooter" OR "melee" army, which opens up demons, elves, orcs (pushing hard to get orc to work), humans (of course).

So, with a single game, I could fork into the different combinations easily, as opposed to restarting.

With the Paladin Class, you almost HAVE to go Paladin, Inquisitor, Rune Mage or else you are left far far behind. Not quite enough leadership to rock the casbah, less flexibilty due to no double weapons, yet, not a great mage.

I'm ok with using "quasi-cheap" strategies, as one could argue my 100% crit catapult idea might be overpowered. I just want FAST and FUN strategies. Taking over 60 rounds to beat any match is NO good.

Thanks for the tips though hmmmm....

[BB Shockwave]

Originally Posted by ckdamascus

Which did not spawn in my new warrior game (grrr).

Tough luck! I am lucky - all three +10 Runes after 50 fight items spawned, and 2 of them in the first islands. Now all I need is 50.000 Gold...

The Drill, Battle Axe, Inquisitor, plus the +6750 leadership bonus warriors have over paladins.

I played the Legend with Paladin, and never found my army too small. In fact, I loved the Palading because unlike with the warrior, I always had enough mana and good intellect to boost my units with spells that last many rounds. Don't learn Chaos, but develop Order and Distortion - spells like Stone Skin, Bless, God Armour, Battle Cry, Haste will be your buff spells, while you can use Phantom/Call of Nature/Phoenix to bring reinforcements, Slow, Helplessness, Blind, Oily Cloud, Dispel to hamper the enemy, and of course Healing, Resurrection and Time-Back to ensure you have no losses.

It ends up being really close with the warrior barely edging out. If you want to stick with paladins, inquisitors, and rune mages, I agree that the paladin's resurrection skill helps that.

Frankly, why is Leadership that important to you? A Mage has even less, but surely it's fun to play a Mage. Think of Paladins as "Clerics" in D&D - they are good in close-combat and can wear armor and weapons, though not as good as fighters, and they have lots of spells to strengthen their allies. They can cast damage dealing spells too, but they are never as potent as that of a Wizard.

I agree with resurrection, but I really don't to feel stuck with paladin/inquisitor/rune mage.

I'm on level 11 now, and my current line-up (Royal Griffins, Rune Mages, Inquisitors, Horsemen, Witch Hunters/Guardsmen) works pretty well. Just defeated Rolf on Bolo. Holy Armor saved my bacon quite often!

I get some of those skills even as a mage! Of course they are good, but nothing really super super super necessary unless you are specializing for dragons.

You get them sure, but a Mage or Warrior never gets that many Mind runes to get there. You will most likely spend your runes on Might Skills and a few Mind skills like Adrenaline as a Warrior, while for a Mage, the Might skills are more vital for survival in battle. The Paladin has the luxury to develop all the Mind skills, if she wants it.

Hmmm you can't raise a normal neutral (like a troll) with persuasion, right? Just the dragons at level 3 Voice?

Dragons and Animals - so this includes Griffins/Royal Griffins, all sort of Snakes, Bears, Hyenas and Wolves. (Oddly the programmers at Nival think Spiders are not animals...)

Another reason I want to go with the warrior is the flexibility for different builds. So far it looks like I can get a reasonably decent "shooter" OR "melee" army, which opens up demons, elves, orcs (pushing hard to get orc to work), humans (of course).

Your choice, but I think a Warrior will always lack the spells needed to boost a melee army. If you face an enemy shooter army, you will need spells like Mass Haste or Oil Clouds to quickly reach the enemy. A Warrior will never have much mana, unless you luck out and get the Picture of Magic (+20 Mana), or the runes needed to develop enough intellect for the spells to last long in the battle.

With the Paladin Class, you almost HAVE to go Paladin, Inquisitor, Rune Mage or else you are left far far behind. Not quite enough leadership to rock the casbah, less flexibilty due to no double weapons, yet, not a great mage.

I never understand why double weapons are so hot. Even as a Warrior, I often opted to use a shield rather. Offense is nice, but as you progress in the game, enemies will start to outnumber you, and you cannot win the battle in a few rounds... meaning you need to use Defense to minimize losses. If you are so keen on dual weapons, use followers who have weapon slots. Me, I preferred to use followers with many Artifact slots, as the special bonuses artifacts give are often better.

You also don't have to go with this combination. You can use Trolls, Dragons, etc... Sure, you won't have as many as a Warrior does, but well that's why you have your spells to boost them. I found Peacefullness is a pretty good spell to turn one of your stronger units like Horseman into a tank.

I'm ok with using "quasi-cheap" strategies, as one could argue my 100% crit catapult idea might be overpowered. I just want FAST and FUN strategies. Taking over 60 rounds to beat any match is NO good.

Everyone has different opinions on gameplay - frankly, I'd get bored with doing the exact same thing every battle. If you want to try this strategy, you might be better off in one of the smaller campaigns like Defender of the Crown, where there are a few battles only.

[ckdamascus]

Originally Posted by BB Shockwave

Frankly, why is Leadership that important to you? A Mage has even less, but surely it's fun to play a Mage. Think of Paladins as "Clerics" in D&D - they are good in close-combat and can wear armor and weapons, though not as good as fighters, and they have lots of spells to strengthen their allies. They can cast damage dealing spells too, but they are never as potent as that of a Wizard.

Damage. I didn't think leadership was that important either, but it really is the pinnacle of everything. Units do FAR FAR FAR more damage, your units abilities gain far more, etc. Of course it is overpowered to have a warrior with too much mage power, and a mage with too much leadership. That's why one should strive for it.

Pop quiz, what is better? -20% leadership for paladins or +20% damage for paladins OR +20% critical for paladins?

Answer is leadership in nearly every scenario. It isn't obvious, but I am happy to show you the numbers.

Originally Posted by BB Shockwave

I'm on level 11 now, and my current line-up (Royal Griffins, Rune Mages, Inquisitors, Horsemen, Witch Hunters/Guardsmen) works pretty well. Just defeated Rolf on Bolo. Holy Armor saved my bacon quite often!

I do miss Holy Armor. Counter attack is not nearly as useful as I thought yet.

Originally Posted by BB Shockwave

You get them sure, but a Mage or Warrior never gets that many Mind runes to get there. You will most likely spend your runes on Might Skills and a few Mind skills like Adrenaline as a Warrior, while for a Mage, the Might skills are more vital for survival in battle. The Paladin has the luxury to develop all the Mind skills, if she wants it.

That's the problem. The mind tree is extremely good as support, but not very good otherwise. Morale boosts are great, but they can be eliminated by the enemy. Adrenaline is too luck based. With the ability to kite or outwit stronger enemies, learning isn't that wonderful (besides raising your final score).

So far the only ability I really want in mind tree is Level 3 critical hit.

I mean, maybe if it was much easier to resurrect dragons. Paladins + Dragons + Rune Mages.... this MIGHT work. Hmmmmm.

That's the biggest Paladin advantage, which is basically the only guy who can easily raise dragons' morale.

Originally Posted by BB Shockwave

Dragons and Animals - so this includes Griffins/Royal Griffins, all sort of Snakes, Bears, Hyenas and Wolves. (Oddly the programmers at Nival think Spiders are not animals...)

I hate royal griffins since they hate dragons. Eh, there are FAR FAR FAR cheaper ways to boost royal griffin's morale, and, morale can be diminished by negative status effects. Royal snakes are cool, but I don't like them either haha.

Originally Posted by BB Shockwave

Your choice, but I think a Warrior will always lack the spells needed to boost a melee army. If you face an enemy shooter army, you will need spells like Mass Haste or Oil Clouds to quickly reach the enemy. A Warrior will never have much mana, unless you luck out and get the Picture of Magic (+20 Mana), or the runes needed to develop enough intellect for the spells to last long in the battle.

Well, the mana thing is mitigated by transmute and mana accelerator. Yeah, pure melee is a little tough. Looks like I am going with somewhat a hybrid build for now. I didn't realize just how AWESOME assassin's dagger is to synergize with goblins and assassins. Gross.

Originally Posted by BB Shockwave

I never understand why double weapons are so hot. Even as a Warrior, I often opted to use a shield rather. Offense is nice, but as you progress in the game, enemies will start to outnumber you, and you cannot win the battle in a few rounds... meaning you need to use Defense to minimize losses. If you are so keen on dual weapons, use followers who have weapon slots. Me, I preferred to use followers with many Artifact slots, as the special bonuses artifacts give are often better.

Triple weapons. Double Battle Axe + Judgement. Arbator, Astral, Whip of Pain, makes Hunters kill dragons before they even make their first turn. For that shooter build, the artifacts are sacrificed to achieve more critical hits (100%+ is the goal).

I've killed Ktahu as a Warrior in Impossible, no loss in 11 rounds. Offense can be used to win once you get past the breaking point. The problem is, the game is balanced so mages can never get past the breaking point.

Warriors can touch it though.

Mostly because mages spells ... they sort of suck in Impossible mode. At last the pure damage ones. Black Hole sort of changed that a little bit, but oddly it falls into the SAME problem you described. You wont' have enough offense to win because you are out gunned.

Spells like pygmy, helplessness, Super Phantom raise a mages's damage level to somewhat similar levels as a warrior.

But a warrior with proper usage can still cast pygmy. But mages got the double cast, so they have more flexibility. Paladins? What do they have?

That's precisely why I'm pissed at that Paladin Class build. It can do neither well.

Originally Posted by BB Shockwave

You also don't have to go with this combination. You can use Trolls, Dragons, etc... Sure, you won't have as many as a Warrior does, but well that's why you have your spells to boost them. I found Peacefullness is a pretty good spell to turn one of your stronger units like Horseman into a tank.

Everyone has different opinions on gameplay - frankly, I'd get bored with doing the exact same thing every battle. If you want to try this strategy, you might be better off in one of the smaller campaigns like Defender of the Crown, where there are a few battles only.

In my opinion, opposite. Those campaigns force you to dynamically pick a strategy with a hodge podge team. Basically, what I'm doing in OOTM before I get to my "final team build".

So you can't pick a specific team since you can't fine tailor your army in those campaigns. You make with what you got.

Mage's biggest advantage is double cast. So, it isn't like the warrior can't use magic either. It is a bit harder at first for the warrior, until he gets order/distortion and transmute.

So, yeah if I go Paladins, basically I have to go dragons and rune mages. Not necessarily a bad thing, but if anything, that sounds like doing the "same thing" over and over again to me.

Right now I'm still able to switch between melee and ranged as a warrior or a hybrid of both ranged/melee.

[edit]
Sorry if I sounded so negative. I think I also got a bit off topic.

I think another way the paladin could be more "useful" so to speak is he can clearly traverse deeper into the mage tree than the warrior can. I'm already able to hit level 3 distortion / level 3 order with the warrior at level 23?

I suppose the paladin can trade away his mind runes to max out either warrior or mage tree. I'm not a big fan of trading though since it is still less efficient.

So I need to find a mage skill that I wouldn't normally get as a warrior that the paladin can get, that has high utility.

I'm thinking, maybe level 3 magic light? Combined with the paladin's native resurrection skill, that should let me resurrect a lot of units, yeah? Sometimes it is more convenient than the turn back time combo + paladins.

Although, I hate how you need so much intellect to make spells useful. Bleh.

[BB Shockwave]

Originally Posted by ckdamascus

Damage. I didn't think leadership was that important either, but it really is the pinnacle of everything. Units do FAR FAR FAR more damage, your units abilities gain far more, etc. Of course it is overpowered to have a warrior with too much mage power, and a mage with too much leadership. That's why one should strive for it.

Pop quiz, what is better? -20% leadership for paladins or +20% damage for paladins OR +20% critical for paladins?

+20% damage, IMHO. Critical is nice, but doesn't happen all the time. Btw, I think a high attack skill is more important then high leadership. Especially againts non-hero armies, even if they are much bigger, you'll have the advantage.

That's the problem. The mind tree is extremely good as support, but not very good otherwise. Morale boosts are great, but they can be eliminated by the enemy. Adrenaline is too luck based. With the ability to kite or outwit stronger enemies, learning isn't that wonderful (besides raising your final score).

How can Morale be eliminated? Apart from Necromancers...

So far the only ability I really want in mind tree is Level 3 critical hit.

Trust me, Resurrection is nifty too. It boosts not only the Paladin's Prayer, but the Rune Mage's Revive too. Unless it's bugged, of course - didn't get there to try it yet.

I agree there are some stupid skills like Diplomacy, but the makers made it sure even stuff like Neatness increases some other stat so it's not a waste of runes.

I mean, maybe if it was much easier to resurrect dragons. Paladins + Dragons + Rune Mages.... this MIGHT work. Hmmmmm.

Rune Mages can resurrect dragons, so yeah, that'd work well.

I hate royal griffins since they hate dragons. Eh, there are FAR FAR FAR cheaper ways to boost royal griffin's morale, and, morale can be diminished by negative status effects. Royal snakes are cool, but I don't like them either haha.

I found Dragons to be over-rated. In my Legend Walkthrough, my Blackies were my tanks, sure - but who did the most damage? Royal Snakes and Griffins. Simply, even with high Leadership, you will never get enough of them to do the same damage as a lower level unit with good attack and damage. Same thing happend with my Lizardmen army and I was using a Warrior - my Gorguls often did twice the damage then the Tirexes. The Level 5 units are very important as the damage-absorbers, though, and of course, Blackies can really wreak havoc on plants or if you cast Oily Cloud.

Well, the mana thing is mitigated by transmute and mana accelerator. Yeah, pure melee is a little tough. Looks like I am going with somewhat a hybrid build for now. I didn't realize just how AWESOME assassin's dagger is to synergize with goblins and assassins. Gross.

Indeed. You are using Furious Goblins, then?

Mostly because mages spells ... they sort of suck in Impossible mode. At last the pure damage ones. Black Hole sort of changed that a little bit, but oddly it falls into the SAME problem you described. You wont' have enough offense to win because you are out gunned.

I played Mage on Hard in Legend, and found the damage spells slightly waning in the last parts of the game, but never to a big extent. I had 2 Heart of Flame and very high Intellect, so any enemy fell to a Grease+Fire Rain combo after a while, until then, there is Slow. As for Dragons, I used Skeleton Archers with Dragon arrow, or summons.

Spells like pygmy, helplessness, Super Phantom raise a mages's damage level to somewhat similar levels as a warrior.

I think the new boosted summons like Phoenix, Infernal Dragon, Evil Book are pretty powerfull too - only saw the enemy cast them, but they are wastly more potent.

But a warrior with proper usage can still cast pygmy. But mages got the double cast, so they have more flexibility. Paladins? What do they have?

I'd like to see that Warrior... you have to sacrifice a lot of Warrior skills to get mana and intellect that high, or wear proper Mage gear.

Mage's biggest advantage is double cast. So, it isn't like the warrior can't use magic either. It is a bit harder at first for the warrior, until he gets order/distortion and transmute.

But he'll never get enough Intellect or Mana to make those spells count, that's my point. He can stick to low-mana spells like Slow or Stone Skin, but try casting Level III Hypnotize with a Warrior, first you will not be able to Hypnotize any troop, second, you'll be out of mana in one turn.

So, yeah if I go Paladins, basically I have to go dragons and rune mages. Not necessarily a bad thing, but if anything, that sounds like doing the "same thing" over and over again to me.

Again, why? I'll most likely replay the game on Hard with a Paladin, going with an all-elven army. It's not impossible.

Right now I'm still able to switch between melee and ranged as a warrior or a hybrid of both ranged/melee.

I thought you were doing an experiment on playing using only melee units... now I am confused.

[edit]
Sorry if I sounded so negative. I think I also got a bit off topic.

No problem. I am not debating whether any caste is better then the other, I'm just saying, I found playing a Paladin just as interesting as the other two castes, and not any harder.

I think another way the paladin could be more "useful" so to speak is he can clearly traverse deeper into the mage tree than the warrior can. I'm already able to hit level 3 distortion / level 3 order with the warrior at level 23?

I am on Level 11 and I could have already gotten Level 2 for both, but I am developing my pally to another direction first - warrior skills are more important right now, and I don't need Level III resurrection yet.

I suppose the paladin can trade away his mind runes to max out either warrior or mage tree. I'm not a big fan of trading though since it is still less efficient.

It'd be nice if the old Paladin Rune Stone skill would still be there, though yeah, the trading is an option. I forgot how the rates were, though.

So I need to find a mage skill that I wouldn't normally get as a warrior that the paladin can get, that has high utility.

I'm thinking, maybe level 3 magic light? Combined with the paladin's native resurrection skill, that should let me resurrect a lot of units, yeah? Sometimes it is more convenient than the turn back time combo + paladins.

Although, I hate how you need so much intellect to make spells useful. Bleh.

Magic Light only heals units, does not resurrect. It's a pretty useless spell, never used it with a Mage either, unless I wanted some enemy undead to move into a more favourable position for a Fire Rain.

Paladins can easily max out Healer and thus can increase the effect of God Armour, Heal and Resurrect ( the latter even further as they have another skill for it). I know, you say a Mage can do this - yep, but in Battle a Mage will be busy chucking damage spells at the enemy, or hypnotizing enemies and putting Sheep and Doom/Pygmy on them. What I was trying to say all along, the Palading gaming style is buff spells/support, he can do that better then the warrior due to higher intellect/mana, and he has better attack/defense and leadership then the mage. He is your typical Holy Warrior leader. Pretty much the same as the Paladin class was in the original King's Bounty, where it was my favourite too.