Friday 2010-06-25 Dev. update and Discussion Thread

[philip.ed]

I don't really see how a dynamic campaign will work if the result is fixed? I'll feel like I have nothing to play for really because I know that my side will win (or lose).

[csThor]

@ zapatista

that is a very very limited perspective of a campaign "engine" (its more a linear set of missions then), and i am fairly confident oleg has a much broader view on this (as he should, since most potential customers want bigger/more options of what a ww-1 combat sim should be)

Is it? In my opinion a campaign should first and foremost try to depict an approximation of what real pilots back then went through every day. This means it has to model their normal days, it has to model the fact that they were members of armed forces with a hierarchical system of responsibilities and decision making layers, were assigned to a certain unit (with the possibility of being transfered) ... Essentially all the little pilots were simply small wheels within a much much larger engine and didn't have an influence on decisions such as strategic goals, political considerations or technological developments. They were on the sharp end of a very long spear ... and this is what a campaigns should try to simulate.

nothing wrong with as part of the options having what you ask for (since some other die hard realists will want this to, sticking to one squadron and try and keep their pilot alive as long as possible), and i suspect it is included, but it would be a total waste of 80% of what will make BoB such a revolutionary sim environment if they limit it to that so narrowly.

i dont remember the details of the red baron campaigns, but personally i am hoping fror a combination of the falcon-2 type server and "mig alley" (the old rowan sim from 10 yrs ago). this means you can select a number of missions from a "task board" once you join a server, like
- fighter combat patrol in a sector
- fighter intercept mission to engage enemy bombers/fighters in grid XYZ
- free flight from any airbase in any sector, where you can only choose a specific aircraft from what is available at that base
- downed pilot resque at sea (hopefully, but oleg says not immediately included probably)
- special mission to drop air supplies to french resistance, or land in france and pick up downed pilot saved by the resistance
- patrol over channel with anti shipping munitions to hunt for enemy shipping
- intercept stuka raid heading for radar installations
- etc

and because the dynamic campaign engine keeps progressing in time, any week you join to select one of those missions, they will be in a very different environment with very different events encountered.

the good thing about the mig alley campaign engine is that you could significantly block enemy supply lines by targeting bridges and railways etc, or roads with truck convoys. this then affected the enemy ability to fight on the ground and their fighting strength, resulting in the frontline moving one way or the other. you could also close down enemy airfields and force them to relocate their aircraft to rear airfields (lengthening their flight time to the front line or interception of your flights, and hence affecting the campaign outcome etc)

i dont either see anything wrong with including some of the falcon-4 type "jump into a flight" type action in the options when you select a flight, since not everybody has always 4 hrs available to make a "pure" mission taking of from a french airbase, climbing to altitude, circle for bomber formation to arrive at meeting point, escort bombers for 30 min over channel, and then have 5 min of fun fighting it out with brittish fighters (where you either get near instantly killed or have to immediately fly back for 30 min return trip on low fuel).

the good thing about the Falcon-4 dynamic campaign server is that you could choose the type of mission you liked THAT DAY for that gaming session. most people that buy il2/BoB dont want to (and shouldnt be forced to) just stick to one type of "combat flight sim" scenario where it is always the same type of action (eg as a fighter go shoot at some other fighters and do a dogfight)

remember, most people reading this current board are older il2 users of the more fanatical type, who are more hardcore in what they want. trying to force ALL BoB-il2 users into that rigid format will seriously limit sales. there is for a significant number of ms-fs-X users who might want to fly supply missions and not "shoot em up" type missions, and many of us might just have 1 or 2 hrs a couple of times per week to do some virtual flying and would prefer to choose the action/mission type we most enjoy for that day. being forced to ALWAYS follow a single "Fritz career" from flight 1 to 22 where he meets his death would be rather boring imo.

The mistake you make is that you throw offline and online campaigns into one pot. Your list is comprehensible and sensible for online campaigns, but as I outlined offline campaigns should try to achieve a much different goal. Online you may go for a different outcome if you want to because the campaign is already non-historical per default. Online campaigns do not necessarily depend on AI-made decisions (such as target selection) since the player is free to do whatever he pleases. Offline such behavior isn't possible (since the mission is tailored to the player's input) and offline is also susceptible to "external factors" such as moronic high-command decisions, geopolitical influences, economical factors etc ... All of which are far outside the scope of a flight sim but which have 99% of influence on the outcome of a military campaign while the player itself has 1% influence at best (if at all). A single pilot can't change the outcome of the BoB when all the relevant factors came from another sphere of responsibility ...

[Xilon_x]

I think I have an idea how to campaign in SoW.
The idea of an interface as the falcon4 and good, but you must think that this is a simulator of the 2WW, and that did not exist at the time of electronic monitors, to monitor the tactical situation of war.
You must think as if you are in your airport and your commander gives you 'orders.
In 'Airport, there were radios for communication maps to plan the route and there were the first types of radars.
The British did not monitor for monitoring the whole situation ENGLISH. but they had a map, and women with the wooden poles, according to radio communications coming from trains, troops or flocks, or been aware of the position the target on the map. NOT EXIST TV monitor or digital displays. FALCON4 war and modern electronic monitor.

[philip.ed]

What I like about BoB2 is, when playing the commander, hearing he waafs's and the controllers vectoring flights etc and also hearing the relative raf squadron leader's answer.
As the player, it's nice to be in conversation with the controller and also to hear what's going on around you when the map is shown. You can even hear them moving in the background! As footsteps can be heard as messages are delivered. It is the most immersive moddern simulator of this type in my opinion.

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by Xilon_x

I think I have an idea how to campaign in SoW.
The idea of an interface as the falcon4 and good, but you must think that this is a simulator of the 2WW, and that did not exist at the time of electronic monitors, to monitor the tactical situation of war.
You must think as if you are in your airport and your commander gives you 'orders.
In 'Airport, there were radios for communication maps to plan the route and there were the first types of radars.
The British did not monitor for monitoring the whole situation ENGLISH. but they had a map, and women with the wooden poles, according to radio communications coming from trains, troops or flocks, or been aware of the position the target on the map. NOT EXIST TV monitor or digital displays. FALCON4 war and modern electronic monitor.

your poor english has made you completely misunderstand why the example of "falcon-4 type mission tasking" was being suggested in the earlier post, it has NOTHING to do with "modern technology" being used.

[janpitor]

I think at least the option to get into the plane already in flight would be good for people who dont have much time or only want to have a small break between other work. I liked the system of offline campaign in Falcon4 exactly because I could fly from cold cockpit, from runway or from the air and I could pick the mission I wanted. Maybe this can be limited for SOW only for the current squadron, so that it could be more historically correct. For example you are assigned a mission. Then you press accelerate time and watch the action in map view. Then you stop the accel. or hit fly when you think the flight is near the action. By this, you save the computing power needed, so you can have maybe 100 time acceleration or more. So in 10 to 15 seconds you can be directly in action.

[robday]

Originally Posted by janpitor

I think at least the option to get into the plane already in flight would be good for people who dont have much time or only want to have a small break between other work.

If a player does not have the time to do a full mission in IL2 he can always use the time skip facility to take him to the next waypoint. Used repeatedly it can dramatically reduce the mission duration and automatically returns to normal time when in range of the enemy. I would assume something similar will be included in SoW

[csThor]

@ Oleg

Information has been sent. If you need them in higher resolution let me know.

[janpitor]

It is partly true, but I think when time skip is used, all parameters like flight model are calculated. This reduces the maximum possible time compression. If this isn´t true and SOW will use simplified model for time skip, then I didn´t tell anything

And also sometimes you would like to skip take off for time shortage.

Originally Posted by robday

If a player does not have the time to do a full mission in IL2 he can always use the time skip facility to take him to the next waypoint. Used repeatedly it can dramatically reduce the mission duration and automatically returns to normal time when in range of the enemy. I would assume something similar will be included in SoW

[robday]

Originally Posted by janpitor

And also sometimes you would like to skip take off for time shortage.

Climb into the cockpit, hit autopilot, hit time skip. No problem!