Rebalancing of tanks needed!

[KnightFandragon]

All that about the Tiger being good in game and how it was in RL. maybe in game it is decent but how do u explain it's shells bouncing off M4A1 Shermans and T34s. The Tiger should kill them easier then the 90s and 76s kill it. Yeah I realize this is a game and it needs play balance but the Tiger isnt play balanced its crap. If it was play balanced its gun would have the effectiveness of the M4A4VC Firefly of the British...as for now its worse then the M4A1 75M3 gun, or atleast not alot better. Although the penetration numbers on the description say its better, field testing proves its not. I played a Tank only battle not to long ago, my dad bounced no less than 5 rounds off my T34/76 M43 from reletivly close range, having no further effects past the broke turret which I think came from his Panzer IV H. The map was warehouse and that isnt a big map from DZ to DZ, so his Tiger bouncing like that off 47mm of armor on the T34 is pretty bad. Sure the T34 has its slope but it doesnt save it that well. Even in Singleplayer I lose atleast half my T34s I get on the Penal Unit mission to those Panzer IVs. For a Heavy Tank the Tiger is garb in MP when compared to others....its my last choice. The Panther is decent but its side is like melted butter. If MoW isnt ever going to give it it's real gun atleast give it it's real armor so Sherman M4s have a harder time killing it. Even the 85mm gun ofthe Russians is only 50% chance from the front in Squad Leader, that game is based almost entirely off realistic numbers and such.

[KnightFandragon]

Lolz, while were on the topic of tanks and thier guns in this game, let me ask this one thing.......why do your shots sometimes go through the tank like its a ghost or something? I am messing around in the editor w/ Fireflies vs Panthers. Ive given the Fireflies my modded 76mm Mk5 and it has like 185mm penetration max. I roll up beside this panther, kissing it with my tank barrel, fire and my round hits the ground on the other side of the tank with no effect. Same thing happened twice in the same editor battle. Then the same thing has happened over and over and over and over.....I cant put enough overs in there.....but yeah. I fire at a tank and my round hits the ground right behind the tank, or the ground underneath it while going through the thing entirely while missing it. That is prolly the #2 most annoying thing to me in this game. #1 is definitly gun vs armor penetration. my Mk5 has 185mm penetration, I was shooting the Panthers w/ like 120-145ish penetration with a green circle and the Panther side armor is I think 45, 52 at best, yet it takes me 2,3..4......5? shots to kill it seriously....like what the ........#3 Is why do tanks disappear even though your staring it right in the face? ive again and again gotten into tank matches, both in the editor and mainly online where both tanks are just shooting each other, not moving yet after every shot the tank will just disappear.....I understand the fog of war...atleast to some extent but seriously? Cloaking Devices and Transparent tank hulls? Just no, this is a WWII RTS, not some World of Warcraft or Everquest magic show......

Onto another topic that has nothing to do w/ tanks but with stealth....what does it do for infantry? Or does it just not work in the editor? Ive made a group of Canadian Marine troops and I gave them the perk "stealth". So, last night I was testing it to see what it did, in the editor, and i was crawling my Marines into bushes, walking up on them, then taking regular guys and walking up on them and both troops were seen at the same ranges. Also, used the same soldiers and tried crawling across a road to see if maybe stealth lowered the detection radius of men...conclusion...nope....Of course ive seen the Scouts in MP and they have Stealth...they are invisible for all practical purposes. I guess the effect doesnt work in the editor just as the Binoculars dont?

[Crni vuk]

Originally Posted by KnightFandragon

All that about the Tiger being good in game and how it was in RL. maybe in game it is decent but how do u explain it's shells bouncing off M4A1 Shermans and T34s.

Distance. As simple as that. Obviously the how guns work in MoW is NOT realistic. Its just derived from reality. The Sherman and T34 could deflect the Tiger 1 shell. If the distance was big enough. But we are probably talking here about a distance where you could not even see or hit the tank in a real battle. The maximum you would engage in combat would be around 2000m. Usual ranges have been between 700 and 1500m succesfull hits by Tiger crews on 1500m have been quite common cause of the good balistics and gun. For example in Men of War the T34 sees a lot of richochets from the Panzer IV H as well even though when the T34 hull (75 and 85) could be penetrated by the Panzer IV H up to 2000m from pretty much any angle.

I am not defending Men of War. I find it sometimes quite frustrating as well. Particuiliarly when using heavy guns like the SU100, or ISU152 which should be a lot more powerfull. But on the other side. Its not like the Tiger 1 is useless in MoW. And people playing the game somehow maybe exepect to be Wittman, Carius or Panzer Mayer or something ... no clue.

Originally Posted by KnightFandragon

Lolz, while were on the topic of tanks and thier guns in this game, let me ask this one thing.......why do your shots sometimes go through the tank like its a ghost or something?

cause its a game and not real life ? Game have bugs, errors, lags etc. etc. etc.

Com on I understand most of your points and I do complain quite often my self as well. But dont complain cause of the sake of complaining. Men of War is a improvement over past games. And maybe we will see more in the future. If there will be new games.

[CzaD]

"You can't make MP historical. I've seen people play Soviet Union vs Soviet Union in North Africa, just plain wrong."

It is just one of the examples of the lack of polish in MoW MP.



Best Way is responsible for that by allowing it. In other games, you choose the exact year and the historical theatres of war for the two fractions you want to play.


@ Crni vuk

Great post. Long but informative.

“So in general you could say WW2 has seen many different designed tanks (much more then today) with specialiced roles and some have been either more or less succesfull.”

I like that sentence a lot. The problem with MoW is that you can’t really appreciate some of the tanks coz many of them are getting outdated too soon during the SINGLE BATTLE, rather than during the WAR.

To be honest with all of you, I like the infantry only battles best. They are most tactical ones, whilst all weapons and tanks only matches remind me of technological race, rather than tactical game. Of course, WW2 saw huge technological race in the course of war, but jumping from early WW2 tanks to late tanks during the same battle is gamey. But you can make it more historical by setting some additional rules for the game, like buying only early WW2 tanks or only selected weapons.


I hope we see eras and hitorical battles in AS.

[Crni vuk]

Originally Posted by CzaD

I like that sentence a lot. The problem with MoW is that you can’t really appreciate some of the tanks coz many of them are getting outdated too soon during the SINGLE BATTLE, rather than during the WAR.

Thats cause many go for the big bang for the small money (points). meaning 600 point games. Seriously dont play them if its to stressfull or anyoing. I only sometimes play them when I dont want to care if I loose a expensive unit or not.

Just play more games with only 450 or even just 300 points available and you will see a lot more vehicles which are not becoming obsolete so fast and with a bit of skill can dominate the battlefield. In some games you will not ever see a super heavy tank even and just have maybe 1 Panther in front of you.

One game I remember we played 2vs2 with medium numbers and for almost the most game we would not even use more then infantry, anti tank guns and eventualy 1 Sherman 76w. I got some Tiger 1 and my gun was destroyed after killing 2 Panzer IV as well. So he loost probably more then 100 points and who knows how much with infantry trying to take out the gun but I have probably not even loost half of it. In the end we won cause we only had half of not less of the casualites our enemy had to suffer. He rarely used some infantry or guns. I noticed how anti tank guns can be quite a good thing sometimes! Its hard for tanks to spot them and they pack some punch once you have a chance to shoot the flank or weak parts. And if you loose them its not like the whole game is over.

Less points available can change a lot and actualy make the game much more tactical. Well more then 6 or 7 Queen-Tigers with 3-4 Sturmtigers as back up ...

[KnightFandragon]

Lolz, idc what money setting you put it to....ive buy a Panzer IV H early a few infantry squads and then wait for my King Tiger.....=D The Americans and Russians will always have those uber sluggers, 76ws...yeah.....

[Evilsausage]

Buying just one tank and that saving for KT is not always a good choice. Specially if your panzer 4 H get fucked up.

Personaly i normaly always get highest score in my team without playing with King Tigers. Prefere to be able to get good control of the battlefield instead of saving up for a super heavy tank.
Also Jagdpanthers can normaly do the same job as the KT, Unless IS-3s, T-29s are out on the field.

[Nikitns]

LOL what is this worthless crap? are you guys seriously DELUSIONAL? OR are you playing some mod? A t-34 gets splattered by a Panzer 4 from 100m at any range. Only way a T-34 can survive is 2 drive halfway up a hill into a semi-hull down position. That way its slope increases far more.


A tiger 1 tank can pretty much smash any Shermans (even Panzer 4 doesn't have a problem with those) from very far away. The sherman is a terrible tank with a high profile.

Panther DID have very thin armour at the flanks.

If Tiger wasn't angled, a T-34/85 shouldn't have any problems killing it from 1000m/front using decent ammunition.

Tiger did NOT face 400 Soviet armoured vehicles. Obviously vast majority of German armoured vehicles were APC's, medium tanks, armoured cars et cetra so they faced their soviet counterparts.

Originally Posted by KnightFandragon

All that about the Tiger being good in game and how it was in RL. maybe in game it is decent but how do u explain it's shells bouncing off M4A1 Shermans and T34s. The Tiger should kill them easier then the 90s and 76s kill it. Yeah I realize this is a game and it needs play balance but the Tiger isnt play balanced its crap. If it was play balanced its gun would have the effectiveness of the M4A4VC Firefly of the British...as for now its worse then the M4A1 75M3 gun, or atleast not alot better. Although the penetration numbers on the description say its better, field testing proves its not. I played a Tank only battle not to long ago, my dad bounced no less than 5 rounds off my T34/76 M43 from reletivly close range, having no further effects past the broke turret which I think came from his Panzer IV H. The map was warehouse and that isnt a big map from DZ to DZ, so his Tiger bouncing like that off 47mm of armor on the T34 is pretty bad. Sure the T34 has its slope but it doesnt save it that well. Even in Singleplayer I lose atleast half my T34s I get on the Penal Unit mission to those Panzer IVs. For a Heavy Tank the Tiger is garb in MP when compared to others....its my last choice. The Panther is decent but its side is like melted butter. If MoW isnt ever going to give it it's real gun atleast give it it's real armor so Sherman M4s have a harder time killing it. Even the 85mm gun ofthe Russians is only 50% chance from the front in Squad Leader, that game is based almost entirely off realistic numbers and such.

LOL, whining based on nothing. Sorry if I sound rude mate, but I have NEVER experienced this. A Panzer 4H eats T-34/76 for breakfast even from 100m+ range. A Tiger would be overkill. You would need a T-34/85 or even better KV-85 to take down a Tiger 1.

Sounds like you are using some mod or something.

Also the editor stats for armour and penetration are NOT the same for MP stats.

[KnightFandragon]

Lolz, all that I put there about the Tiger wasnt a mod....it was 1.17.5 MP on the Warehouse map in the base game. Also, just the other day I was shooting a T34/76 from like 70 and closer and was doing nothing but bouncing with 2 Pzr IV H's with straight on shots to its side and frontal armor untill I got to like 30 and closer then I got yellow numbers and it went through finally. If I was able to record battles and make videos for proof of some of this crap I sooo totally would. Then in a Tank only battle just the other day I took the Pzr IV G and was shooting a lone M4A1 Sherman from pretty much max distance and bouncing off its side with like 7-8 shots. Only when the guy got like 60 away with like 2 or 3 straight on front shots did I get him. Am i having all this trouble b/c people are using armor cheats and cheating in this game is more common then I think it is or what? Soo many people say the Tiger is good but when I see it used in MP or play with it in the editor it sucks. The Panther I know has melted butter for armor, not complaining about that, just stating what about it I dont like.

[Nikitns]

Originally Posted by KnightFandragon

Lolz, all that I put there about the Tiger wasnt a mod....it was 1.17.5 MP on the Warehouse map in the base game. Also, just the other day I was shooting a T34/76 from like 70 and closer and was doing nothing but bouncing with 2 Pzr IV H's with straight on shots to its side and frontal armor untill I got to like 30 and closer then I got yellow numbers and it went through finally. If I was able to record battles and make videos for proof of some of this crap I sooo totally would. Then in a Tank only battle just the other day I took the Pzr IV G and was shooting a lone M4A1 Sherman from pretty much max distance and bouncing off its side with like 7-8 shots. Only when the guy got like 60 away with like 2 or 3 straight on front shots did I get him. Am i having all this trouble b/c people are using armor cheats and cheating in this game is more common then I think it is or what? Soo many people say the Tiger is good but when I see it used in MP or play with it in the editor it sucks. The Panther I know has melted butter for armor, not complaining about that, just stating what about it I dont like.

1. Record videos with fraps.
2. Maybe you are just a bad shooter? you could be hitting the top part of the T-34's armour, and the T-34 could be in a semi hull down position (increasing its slope drastically). If it was a shot from 60m hitting directly at front, it did not happen.
3. M4A1 has decent side armour. I would expect it to bounce off a few shots from a Panzer 4G at 140m, especially if it hit the upper part of the side-armour. From front: you need 2 hit from 80-90 meters usually. Try to shoot against points where there is minimum amount of slope, and NEVER shoot at the upper part of the armour.


Sounds 2 me you are exaggerating. Sorry man, but no way in hell did a T-34/76 m40 take a head on centre on front armour Panzer4H shot, on flat ground from 60m. This may happen sometimes, but that would be extremely rare.