demon line-up

[Metathron]

I meant the paladin unit's talent, not the paladin hero's skill.

Did the resurrection spell work on demons in TL? Otherwise don't know where I got this preconceived notion that it doesn't.

[loreangelicus]

Yup! The Resurrection spell worked fine on demon unit types in KBTL, and I would assume that it still does in KBAP.

Heal and Bless don't work on demon unit types though as early as KBTL, so maybe that's where you got the notion that Order spells in general don't work on demons.

[BB Shockwave]

Originally Posted by loreangelicus

Yup! The Resurrection spell worked fine on demon unit types in KBTL, and I would assume that it still does in KBAP.

Heal and Bless don't work on demon unit types though as early as KBTL, so maybe that's where you got the notion that Order spells in general don't work on demons.

I am now level 38 with my Demon Army/Mage build, so I can give some info on these....

Heal indeed doesn't work on demons. Oddly enough, neither does Hell breath - guess they already have a fiery breath, so they cannot get more "hot". Life Light and Paladin (unit) Prayer damages Demons, actually.
However, Resurrection, Armor of God, even (funnily) Guardian Angel works fine on Demons. Bless cannot be cast on them directly, except for shrines on battlefields, and Inquisitors cannot cast their Holy Rage on them either - they can, I mean, but it only adds Bless without the Rage bonus. The Level 3 Ancient Phoenix's "Tears of Life" cannot resurrect Demons, either.
Gizmo heals/gives action points to Demons as well.
Oh, and they cannot get Plague - meaning it's a good spell to use on enemies.

So far, it's a lot of fun. My general line-up is Archdemons, Executioners, Demonesses, Demonologists and Cerberi. With Undead, or Gremlin Tower battles I sometimes swap in the Executioners for Demons, for tough battles I replace Cerberi with Demons. And sometimes I use Scoffer Imps too.

Dragon of Chaos, especially on Level 3, works like a charm with Demons. I have gotten Demetrius up to tier 3, have the Bow of Thousand Souls and the Hellfire Necklace. Demons having a basic 50% (and Archdemons 80%) resistance to fire means you can throw fireballs/fire rain around like there is no tomorrow. Summoning with demons and demonologists is fun, but you have to be careful if you want to keep enemies alive for resurrection as they cannot be controlled.
This army is also the best for using Death Star, as your Archdemon is bound to be the first to move in every battle and can teleport out of the way. Demonesses might be slow and I rarely ever get them to the front lines, but their swapping is great to get the Executioners into the throng, and some damaged enemy unit back next to the ladies for Charming in the next round. And then you can have fun with Sacrifice...
Cerberi deal great damage, but they are fragile. Best used in the first rounds and then ressed with Time Back.
Executioners can be a great help to get level 1-2 units to leave all my units alone with their Fear. Them and Demons excel as tanks, and dominate helps with killing 1-3 level units, as does unlimited retaliation and the Anger ability that often lets them act a second or third time in each round.

[DGDobrev]

Originally Posted by Metathron

I meant the paladin unit's talent, not the paladin hero's skill.

Did the resurrection spell work on demons in TL? Otherwise don't know where I got this preconceived notion that it doesn't.

Exactly - the paladin unit talent doesn't ress demons, it damages them instead.

[impy]

Now it just leaves one question unanswered.
Which character is more suitable - paladin or mage.
Paladin would be immensely helpful with ressurection, then higher leadership for demonologists, higher defence resulting in less ressurecting.
However, there are so many mage skills needed:
order magic 3 - ressurect up to level 4 units
distorsion 3 - time back, phantom, target
summoning 3
chaos 2+ - my preferred tactics if there are no archers left : fear the last unit and start ressurecting for 4 turns without worrying.
loads of mana available..
I think i stick with mage.
Now line -up will be : archdemon, demon, executioner, demonologists and then...again demonesses or little imps? Demoness is slow. imp is low level unit so it may screw up fear tactics

[impy]

I played a bit with demon line-up and it turned out to be quite interesting, it deserves few words I think. Currently level 30, things finally going smoothly, just defeated demetrius 3 guardians and got reha scroll.
Although not as extremely challenging as my previous attempts with single black dragon or ultimate challenge with knight, it will ask any seasoned player to come up with fresh tactics. Basically, no loss impossible game asks you to play a bit conservative, demon line-up will ask you to play super conservative due to lack of affordable ressurecting.
I mentioned before, at the beginning I kitted all the way to Shettera, did not do any quests on the way, just picked experience shrine in order to have enough leadeship for one archdemon, and back to debir to start the game. I did not allow myself to do any quests in new areas until I defeat their map guardians properly with demon line-up.
I made sure the following items appear easily accessible : demetrius, bow of souls, twinkling boots, belt of mana, chaos crown + death star, ressurection, turn back + demonologists.
Things get tough after Scarlet island, since
1) your demonologists are weak to ressurect
2) you don’t have enough intellect for powerful ressurecting
3) ressurect 3 cost 30 mana, time back on archdemons 30 mana. Your mana regen. is low, mana accelerator not maxed out, mana pool not great yet. So good bye mana hungry higher damaging spells, if you want to do ressurecting.
4) But, if you give up harsh spellcasting how are going to kill the opponent with mage with low att/def and leadership, early in the game?
That’s why I said this set-up is fairly challenging, try it. Up until level 25 it is certainly challenging. I picked mage for this challenge and never regreted this decision, paladin wouldn’t be able to keep up with ress.requirements.
Strategy: Basically, demons and executioners do just finishing jobs in order not to get hit much, demonologists hide, damage is done by demon summons from demons+demonologists, archdemons and hastened scoffer imps + pet dragon is used for mana acc & ball. I did not take elenhel, since i find attributes of bow of thousand soul too good to give up. Question was who would become target. Archdemons seemed an obvious choice, but a pain to restore, only demonologists or time back, but eventually it worked. Check out the screenshot, not bad for un-buffed unit,hm? Executioners turned out to be a bit of dissapointment for unit with highest leadership req. of all 4th level unit. Their terrifying ability gives a headache, cause it automatically makes imps a target. But imps are much better than demoness.

[BB Shockwave]

I found that you can easily get a no losses game ending even with a warrior - granted, I was playing on Hard only. I used an all-lizardmen army, btw though it took until around level 21 to get to Reha finally. I maxed out Order and Distortion magic for Time Back and Resurrection, as well as all the nifty mass beneficial spells of these schools which come really handy. In AP magic crystals are plentifull so getting spells upgraded is easy. And you can easily get lot of mana with good artifacts, not to mention the skill that gives you mana every time you kill a stack of enemies - it can be abused in fights with Towers to no amount.

I do plan to do a mage with demon army next myself. In the original game, the demons weren't that powerfull sadly, but in AP especially the Archdemons are awesome. Their halving ability can really turn the tide quickly. I think even Cerberi are usefull - due to their new ability they can run and block several enemy archers at once. SCoffers imps are good too, but perhaps better worth summoning them with demons. I guess Demons/Executioner can be swapped depending on what you face - Executioners are not too usefull against undead and lizardmen, but otherwise can seriously hamper an enemy with debuffs. In my first playthrough I used Demonologists for a while, they are very effective healers and give you instant fodder - but due to their short range not too good damage dealers. I guess they can be used until you have enough mana/power for resurrect and demon portal, which will be more effective later on. Also the fact that you cannot control the summoned demons can be a hindrance as they can ruin your strategy.

[ckdamascus]

Any update on this? I am curious about this since executioners "seem" to be the best candidate for Lvl3 "Berserker" given they have the highest base attack rating for level 4, therefore, will benefit the most from the spell.

Or perhaps I should just live with demonologists summoning up executioners, and then berserkering them. I usually casted kamikaze on the demonologist summons. Ah the joy!

A real shame it seems most no-loss strategies revolve around the paladin or eviln.

[impy]

Originally Posted by BB Shockwave

I found that you can easily get a no losses game ending even with a warrior - granted, I was playing on Hard only. I used an all-lizardmen army, btw though it took until around level 21 to get to Reha finally. I maxed out Order and Distortion magic for Time Back and Resurrection, as well as all the nifty mass beneficial spells of these schools which come really handy. In AP magic crystals are plentifull so getting spells upgraded is easy. And you can easily get lot of mana with good artifacts, not to mention the skill that gives you mana every time you kill a stack of enemies - it can be abused in fights with Towers to no amount.

I do plan to do a mage with demon army next myself. In the original game, the demons weren't that powerfull sadly, but in AP especially the Archdemons are awesome. Their halving ability can really turn the tide quickly. I think even Cerberi are usefull - due to their new ability they can run and block several enemy archers at once. SCoffers imps are good too, but perhaps better worth summoning them with demons. I guess Demons/Executioner can be swapped depending on what you face - Executioners are not too usefull against undead and lizardmen, but otherwise can seriously hamper an enemy with debuffs. In my first playthrough I used Demonologists for a while, they are very effective healers and give you instant fodder - but due to their short range not too good damage dealers. I guess they can be used until you have enough mana/power for resurrect and demon portal, which will be more effective later on. Also the fact that you cannot control the summoned demons can be a hindrance as they can ruin your strategy.

all the best to all kbap gamers, but BB Shockwave, i have to disagree with some of your comments. First, hard and impossible difficulty are different and that extra difficulty will put those easy peasy strategies to shame. You say you got Reha scroll on hard at 21 level. The easiest Reha scroll is in my opinion at Elon between the two castles, and I don't remember to get it on impossible no loss until 25 level if lucky, more like 30 level.. Halving ability of archdemons is great, but in most of the battles you face huge threating stacks with much higher leadership than you have = no halving until later. I do not find Cerberi useful. Their damage output is low, and they die quickly. True, you can time back them or heavily ressurect them, but there are better strategies. Dangerous enemy range attackers can be always tricked with target or blind, sheep, fear. And inability to control the summoned demons is a hindrance? How? You do not care if they die, the only bad things I can think of are stepping on your own traps, attacking blinded unit, but again, positives of meat shield far outweigh the negatives.

As for the progress, I left the demon line-up at around level 30, since I become so powerful, that middle game became too easy for my liking. I intended to get back to it, but lost the save file. Then I was playing with single red dragon, got stuck at k'tahu fight, now playing no loss impossible mage, no kitting, no wanderer scrolls, no direct damage spells, no creature summons, no hero summons, no hero phantoms apart from paladin phantom purely for ressurection purposes.Quite interesting

[ckdamascus]

Too easy? I live for the "kick the computer's butt" combo! I call it pay back for all the times I had to re-load because I messed up my strategy for a no-loss battle.

How can it be too easy? The early archdemon made it rough for the enemy? I still can't see how the demons can survive against a powerful boss like k'tahu.

Interesting? That sounds insane! Insane! I can't see how that is possible without a very lucky saved game of decent items early on.

My early game on Debir is about getting royal thorns asap so I could stand a chance against the heroes.

You truly are a hardcore gamer! I salute you! Do tell your early strategy in winning without any form of 'kiting'. By the way, is it kiting when you kill the devilfish first by using the boat instead of fighting the first monster right outside the city?