"Wings" Of Prey (PC). Watchout Oleg!

[proton45]

One of the key points of any game, is the ability to suspend ones skepticism to the point where they can (somewhat) forget that they are sitting at a computer playing a game...Anything that is built into a game that can help the player indulge the fantasy is good. In some cases, like with "BoP", the makers attempt to nudge our willingness to "play" by tapping into the fantasy and enthusiasm that one feels while watching a good movie...like "Saving Private Ryan" or "Band of Brothers". I for one prefer a "closer to reality" look that makes me feel that Im seeing things the way they where "back then"...If I play a game that looks "like the real world" (like I'm looking out the window) then when I see an "ME109" or the "White Cliff of Dover"...I feel transported back in time.

[sweln]

If a game could make me believe i'm really playing in "Porco Rosso" or in "The Cockpit"... geee.
Well somehow, I think that SoW, if it looks better than WoP and is a bit moddable, yup, it will be possible.

Other way around, it will be another 10 years to wait before we can get our hands on enough power and tech to have a sim that really looks like real stuff.

[RomBinDaHouse]

Originally Posted by sweln

Other way around, it will be another 10 years to wait before we can get our hands on enough power and tech to have a sim that really looks like real stuff.

No, man. It's closer. 3-4-5 years, no more.

But when it comes, all the guys will say in horus: "Whata Faaa??? I need REALISM, not da SHEEET".

It will be forever. Virtual Reality not for "pseudo"-gurmans, sorry people. It is for approximation of reality aye, that's for sure.
And finally - it's a GAME.. like your fantasy-WoW-Dream-'bout-elven\orc-gay.

You can get "simulator" on VIP- big spherical screen in aviation-school for more money, that cost home entertainment. For sure. And it will be again - only approximation of reality...


PS sorry for english =)

[sweln]

Well next generation of consoles will be in 3-4 years. And it will still be a little not powerfull enough for photo realism. Same for physics. So I'd say another generation more (and PC equivalent).

Big school sims do have all the mechanical stuff, but the graphics... doooo... nope, I can tell, they are all outdated.

[Chromius]

Really to sum up my previous post which is not targeted at WoP to flame it, but to say "hey do not throw out all these graphic pictures and say Oleg, SoW better be able to do this or else" I am glad someone else took the time to create a new WW2 combat flight sim. The market does need more people in it.

But I would not want potential simulation developers to get fixated on the graphical aspect as being the most important. Just because you all say so.

Heightened realism in a Simulation is not dependent on its graphical representation but primarily on the mechanics at work behind the graphics, do you think a real life 747 or any military simulation had a requirement for good graphics as being the key part?

Thus its called a Simulation and not a game wanting to be a simulation.

Yes graphics do add immensely to the immersion but I would not think it is the "key" element to a simulation.

Ok its WW2 and we had supercomputers early (fantasy obviously) and needed a Combat simulator to train pilots, what would the military want as key training elements in its flight simulator? good AI tactics, realistic Take-offs and landings , startup by checklist? Complex FM's DM's and engine management?

Then there is the whole other aspect Mods, Multiplayer, and all the things that can be done in a mission editor ect.....ground objects and interaction.

If I liked graphics I would not be playing War In the Pacific AE, HOI3 (counters on), TOAW3 along with other simulations.

One that many may not care about as a comparison, Baldurs Gate to Dragon Age, yeah fancy graphics, yeah it has classes and story and skills but god I think its about 3 steps back , but its quite popular go figure? I couldnt even finish it.

But yes WoP will satisfy the needs of many people and I am happy that it will, but I would never want graphics to take precedence in anything labeled as a simulation. But then again I am the minority in this so I lose.

Originally Posted by RomBinDaHouse

No, man. It's closer. 3-4-5 years, no more.

But when it comes, all the guys will say in horus: "Whata Faaa??? I need REALISM, not da SHEEET".

It will be forever. Virtual Reality not for "pseudo"-gurmans, sorry people. It is for approximation of reality aye, that's for sure.
And finally - it's a GAME.. like your fantasy-WoW-Dream-'bout-elven\orc-gay.

You can get "simulator" on VIP- big spherical screen in aviation-school for more money, that cost home entertainment. For sure. And it will be again - only approximation of reality...


PS sorry for english =)

I beg to differ, If you fly stock fsx-fs9 and do not attempt to fly by the flight rules and limitations of the engines/aircraft then yes its a game. If you fly fsx-fs9 with addon aircraft, addon weather, plan the flight correctly using real routes taking into account winds/weather , fly online vatsim using real atc and flying by real aircraft limitations and flight rules and regulations as per region specific and aircraft POH/FCOM's then no its not a game but a simulation. Real World Pilots and pilots in training fly in many Online Virtual Airlines and in FS-9/FSX just so they can fly aircraft they do not get to fly in real life. Years ago there was a tutorial on flying an add-on 737 by a regular airline pilot saying that if you can do that you can do the real thing, in fact it is harder for a simmer to hone his/her skills since you cannot feel the aircraft movement and react,(a huge liabilty for visuals is no track ir) which comes as second nature like driving straight down the road and moving the wheel back and forth to stay straight down the road, you stop noticing it.

[RomBinDaHouse]

Originally Posted by Chromius

Yes graphics do add immensely to the immersion but I would not think it is the "key" element to a simulation.

+100500

graphics is only "trick" for "immersion"

[sweln]

Yes, graphics are immersion, but also a simulation of reality. Getting blind because of light you can fake it with lightness, but it's ugly. HDR looks better and so on.

Professional sims don't have beautifull graphics, for sure. That's because they don't have to sell it to the global public!

Of course the main object for SoW is to become the most advanced sim of WW2 flights, and that is mostly physics and FM.
But without up to date top notch graphics, the game won't sell as good as it should, because the simmers community isn't big enough for Oleg and his team to eat everyday. Otherwise there would be even more sims out there.

So SoW has to please future simmers, and the best way to achieve it is by working on every aspect of the game, graphics included. That is why e are all excited (for good or not) about WoP, because we all want SoW to be better in every domain than WoP!

I would like to remind that when Il-2 came out, it was graphically oustanding. And that also made the game's reputation. It was a very good looking and was a deep sim. Everything was over the rest.

SoW has to beat that same challenge. No?

WoP is a good test, and a good first step for Oleg and team to have a good idea of what's "do-able" in terms of graphics (even with a limited terrain and ground objects). Now all the rest has to be as good as that .
I also wonder what are the links between the Il-2 Birds of Prey project and Il-2 / SoW / Oleg Maddox... isn't Birds of Prey published by 1C? And isn't Oleg Maddox a producer at 1C? I'm confused!

Can't Oleg just give his opinion? That would help!

EDIT
I also want to add this, about hollywoodish graphics :
haze and colors, blur and HDR, god rays and other "impressive" FX and cinematographic effects can all be graphical options.
So it is best for Oleg to implement them in SoW (WoP style) and leave the possibility for each of us to tweak the result he wants (Il-2 difficulty settings style)!

[Chromius]

I agree with the points you have made

Originally Posted by sweln

Yes, graphics are immersion, but also a simulation of reality. Getting blind because of light you can fake it with lightness, but it's ugly. HDR looks better and so on.

Professional sims don't have beautifull graphics, for sure. That's because they don't have to sell it to the global public!

So yes, focusing on a realistic simulation and not keeping the graphics up to par with current capabilities will most likely result in less sales and a smaller overall community, which everyone has to admit that for the multiplayer to be fun we need a decent pool of players to make it thrive. And for the single player, new campaigns and missions made by interested people. This is the balancing act.

Originally Posted by Flanker35M

As of detailed structures or such in landscape. Personally I do not give a damn if the tractor in the field has the Massey-Ferguson stenciled on it when I zoom over it at around 500km/h or if every door knob in a town is individually made..you get the pic. Sure for screenshots or movies fine, but otherwise you do not see it while playing. Immersion does not need all bells and whistles

It is just waste of resources if going too deep to the detail factory I am an online player and there all that matters is PING and PERFORMANCE. You do NOT want stutter from hyperdetailed objects or stuff like that, it kills gameplay. And online you are not there to admire if grass sweeps in wind or the water is exactly the right color..you die if you day dream For an online the dots, plane shapes and such matter more than if a small gimmick is right or wrong on the ground.

Do not get me wrong, I like nice graphics. But they have to serve the game, NOT distract away from the game, replace content or decrease overall performance. SoW will be VERY intensive on your machine because it will have a high fidelity DM/FM + new AI and more planes in the air. Also plane models have far more details/polygons which all take more horsepower.

Even Oleg's team for sure has good programmers, there is a limit what one can do. A constant balance between being playable and just a nice slide show. Oleg would not make a game that would run just OK on today's rig and wait for better hardware to appear. He will release a product that runs on a broad spectrum = SALES and INCOME! Sure with the option for the tech freaks to bring their machines to their knees by turning it all ON in options A plus is that if SoW is DirectX 11 then both ATI(already) and nVidia(soon) will run it fine without gimmicks..Both manufacturers make cards that eat games for lunch.

Yes the other big tricky balance, how much of it is going to work in Multiplayer for fps and Pings. #1 Immersion breaker in Multiplayer, how smooth it plays.

[Flanker35M]

S!

So if it is hard and solid info that WoP is NOT based on IL2 engine, then I stand corrected. Might have got wrong info myself then and can admit it if I am wrong To my understanding Rise Of Flight is modified IL2 engine though. Has nice self shadowing and lighting on planes etc.

IL2 sure is 10 years old, but it has more content than ANY WW2 game yet. It will take SoW lot of time to bring even a fraction of it, like MTO etc. The curse word "modding" has done that to IL2 and of course Team Daidalos with bringing in new officially endorsed stuff. So it is far from dead Some code changes are a dream and sure not priority for OM

As of detailed structures or such in landscape. Personally I do not give a damn if the tractor in the field has the Massey-Ferguson stenciled on it when I zoom over it at around 500km/h or if every door knob in a town is individually made..you get the pic. Sure for screenshots or movies fine, but otherwise you do not see it while playing. Immersion does not need all bells and whistles

It is just waste of resources if going too deep to the detail factory I am an online player and there all that matters is PING and PERFORMANCE. You do NOT want stutter from hyperdetailed objects or stuff like that, it kills gameplay. And online you are not there to admire if grass sweeps in wind or the water is exactly the right color..you die if you day dream For an online the dots, plane shapes and such matter more than if a small gimmick is right or wrong on the ground.

Do not get me wrong, I like nice graphics. But they have to serve the game, NOT distract away from the game, replace content or decrease overall performance. SoW will be VERY intensive on your machine because it will have a high fidelity DM/FM + new AI and more planes in the air. Also plane models have far more details/polygons which all take more horsepower.

Even Oleg's team for sure has good programmers, there is a limit what one can do. A constant balance between being playable and just a nice slide show. Oleg would not make a game that would run just OK on today's rig and wait for better hardware to appear. He will release a product that runs on a broad spectrum = SALES and INCOME! Sure with the option for the tech freaks to bring their machines to their knees by turning it all ON in options A plus is that if SoW is DirectX 11 then both ATI(already) and nVidia(soon) will run it fine without gimmicks..Both manufacturers make cards that eat games for lunch.

Oh well, too long rant now. But IL2 is NOT dead, it could use at least some support still. WoP has potential, RoF even more so and is the only WW1 sim at the moment bringing back the bugs between your teeth SoW will start a new era, when released. So times are good for gamers