Daidalos Team's Room -QUESTIONS AND REQUESTS ONLY on IL2 Authorized Addons

[Bulgarian]

Originally Posted by Kwiatek

Why P-51 in game had these problem all time?

I find what is reson of these.

RL data for P-51 claim lenght of these plane = 9.83 m

In game all P-51 have lenght = 9.38m.

These look like "czech error".

What would happend if we correct these value to RL data without even changing CoG value ( COG for P-51 is 0)

...

I tested it and it really works for these plane.

Kwiatek,where you say you got this information from?
What do you mean by "I tested it and it really works"...You did some unauthorised game modification?

PS:Also what do you mean by "czech error"?

Sorry but a lot of unclear things I see in your post.

[hiro]

I was laughing at the "Czech error" myself.

It's what? And it could be miscontrued so many ways. Like saying KI-61 has many "German Errors" in its design. What?




About the P-51 some guys say the wobble it has is because it has 3 way trim and its needs 3 way adjustment and have no complaint about it, some said it sucked but were 'taught' how to fly it (I think Wright32 in ubizoo had some posts on this), and work it. Also online the P-51's guys usually spank me, and I see they have no trouble with their wobbles and gun me down.

Other guys say its not realistic and is the wobble master and its very difficult to play.

It flies fine for me in the Sim. However I am not a mustang expert nor have I flown in one, but the Rata and Chaika are more unstable that the mustang untrimmed . . .

The Corsair wobbles too, not like the Rata or Chaika. It's managable. The FW-190 cockpit . . .arrgh but there's experten handing ppl their azz's in them . . .





One thing I notice is the Hellcat, it just a faster version of the Wildcat . . .


So much, I'd be cool if they added a bearcat, Kyūshū J7W1 Shinden, Skyraider and Mixmaster (just cause it has a hiphop name) while fixing the 109 (I think someone in TEAM D said that), Hellcat, and other planes . . . while making all planes flyable J/K. G55 / TBF, Kate n Jill . . .


But I would like to venture and hope that BOB SOW will take this suggestion. Not just for the 109 but do involved research each of the a/c 's FM put in the sim, the detail in the post is long but really nice:

Originally Posted by Werner Molders

Hi everyone,

I know this must seem like a typical post but i'm going to try my best to phrase this.

As far as flight models go will the Bf 109 E be the real equal of the Spitfire regarding the following issues to the Spitfire Mark IA. For all the talk modifications by "All Aircraft Arcade" on IL2 have lead to delusional flight models to support the RAF.

I will be specific on what I as a pilot and a man doing a degree in aerospace technology degree would specifically like to see. These are my concerns on what I believe might be missed in the new flight models from what i have seen so far in IL2.

1. Acceleration

Firstly, I think that we have overlooked some of the situation regarding speed. Pilots often never reached maximum speed in flight, maximum (WEP) power was often only used for short periods and this often included manoeuvring (obviously in combat).

Even though the Bf 109 E did have at times a maximum speed advantage, maybe this is not the entire picture, I have concluded that it was acceleration that was the more important factor because of the DB 601 Aa having the following characteristics:


A. A better and more developed supercharger than the Merlin III (allowing for better high altitude performance).

B. Being significantly larger in size (displacement of the huge DB 601Aa: 33.9 litres versus Merlin III's: 27 litres).

C. DB 601Aa was fuel injected and more efficient with no lack of performance based on the fact the Spitfire had a carburettor float fuel system which is highly susceptible to getting stuck, causing a reduction in performance by gravity's forces. Remember that the G forces would be changing at a very fast rate while in any manoeuvre (not just dives although this is obviously very pronounced) and this would certainly mean the engine was never performing at its tested maximum performance in any other situation except in level flight (inefficiency of around a few percent).

D. The throttle response of the Bf 109 was considered a strength of the aircraft compared with both RAF fighters and this was mentioned even in the RAE test reports. Again this owed to the easy and business like throttle control but more importantly to the fact a fuel injection engine is able to place the absolutely exact fuel to air ratio to the engine leading to better fuel efficiency as well.


To summarise, the difference in maximum speed at any altitude was minimal at best. The fact was in any battle, this was actually completely irrelevant, acceleration was more important as this allowed a plane to get away from his opponent faster, or complete a manoeuvre with greater developed power while throttling up. This was an advantage again to the Bf 109.

2. Control Harmony/Centre of Gravity/Rudder

Sounds completely pinnickity but i overlooked a key point we have all missed here. The Bf 109 E had a "long tail moment arm" which basically means it uses a very effective horizontal stabiliser and also the rudder was 50% Chord which all leads to the fact a Bf 109 could be yawed from right to left by anywhere within 45 degrees! so a pilot could spray bullets on its axis like a crazy .. ah hem... This is exactly what pilots meant by the aircraft being a stable gunnery platform.

The pilot of a Bf 109 (E) could sit behind an enemy aircraft at a reasonable range within a 45 degree angle range and adjust his aim on the enemy using a great deal of side slip (rudder) with the aircraft having an incredibly effective rudder while the aircraft was quite docile on the horizontal plane.

The Bf 109 had a lot of torque in flight (the rudder being so effective it wanted to move the plane to side slip slightly to one side while in straight flight, forcing the pilot to hold his foot on the rudder most of the time) and often the aircraft would need to be held with a little right rudder due to winds and the effect of pressure as well as the Bf 109 being such a small and very light aircraft with such a large engine being very stable yet sensitive. This has been modelled to a small degree on takeoff (you can feel the swing) but the rest i've just mentioned would be a nice addition.

Due to its otherwise great stability (having a centre of gravity that was kept throughout the development of the Bf 109 by adding the exact amount of ballast for new engines or developments, this kept the Centre of Gravity in the dead middle of the aircraft's weight which prevented spins from occurring easily in stalls and also helped stall be docile). The significance of the centre of gravity in an aircraft is well documented to any pilot who has flown a P-39, its flat spins often unrecoverable due to the engine being in the front!!

To summarise this was a great feature that has not yet been accurately modelled. Something of incredible importance if your enemy is trying to make a quick get away in a tight turn!!

3. Carburettor Negative G Forces

I know this is already probably well tweaked but even the Spitfire Mk V's of 1941 with the "miss shilling orifices" negative G solution still had engine performance loss EVEN when upside down in the dive for sustained periods (inverted) longer than 5 - 6 seconds. This should be modelled for when inverted for both Hurricane and Spitfire Mk I's.

4. MG 17 Effectiveness

This is very trivial but I feel that its almost impossible to take down an aircraft with only two of these guns even at 10 metres away! which is realistically a bit too ineffective. To summarise quickly these machine guns should be slightly more powerful than the Brownings used in the RAF fighters as they had slightly larger calibre and considering they are half the Bf 109's armament I quickly noticed just how unrealistic to real life they are. They need to be tweaked ever so slightly and maybe the Brownings of the RAF fighters too.


Again, I know a lot of faff and i'm just being pinnickity, but it would be well received if these changes could be introduced.

Keep up the great work!

[TheGrunch]

Originally Posted by Bulgarian

Kwiatek,where you say you got this information from?
What do you mean by "I tested it and it really works"...You did some unauthorised game modification?

PS:Also what do you mean by "czech error"?

Sorry but a lot of unclear things I see in your post.

Kwiatek makes FMs for mods. I think Czech error is a direct translation of a figure of speech, doesn't really work as a figure of speech in English. Possibly refers to the typo that a Czech company made that caused internet outages all over the world.
Anyway, every source I can see states the length of the P-51D as 32ft 3in, which is about 9.83m, so if it's wrong in the FM data, I don't see why it shouldn't be changed.

[Bulgarian]

Originally Posted by TheGrunch

Kwiatek makes FMs for mods. I think Czech error is a direct translation of a figure of speech, doesn't really work as a figure of speech in English. Possibly refers to the typo that a Czech company made that caused internet outages all over the world.
Anyway, every source I can see states the length of the P-51D as 32ft 3in, which is about 9.83m, so if it's wrong in the FM data, I don't see why it shouldn't be changed.

Well,if he's taking unauthorised actions over the FM/DM files of this game,then he should know that it is not very appropriate to come over the official boards of the game developer with this type of information.
Also as such,he should know very well that the P-47 and P-51 are not the only planes who are experiencing flaws in their flight and damage models.
There are German,British,Japanese,Italian,etc planes who have such problems aswell,so this post of his does sound a bit one sided.
Also I'm very sure that Kwiatek knows,that the "hacked" version of the game is coming with unofficially reworked FM/DM's,who differ from the original ones.This is one of the hundred risks that the end user is taking when he chooses to use the broken code,and if this error is present in the P-51 FM,then it might be coming from there./I talk from myself/experience in this paragraph/

Anyway,Daidalos Team knows very well what's right and what's not in this game and be sure that we're doing whatever we can to make this game better,and that this report will be checked.

EDIT:About the "Czech error" thing,I think that it's not good idea to use something that most people will not understand and also which cannot be well translated exactly to the language you're talking.Please take in account that the bigger part of DT are Czech.

[David603]

Originally Posted by Bulgarian

Well,if he's taking unauthorised actions over the FM/DM files of this game,then he should know that it is not very appropriate to come over the official boards of the game developer with this type of information.
Also as such,he should know very well that the P-47 and P-51 are not the only planes who are experiencing flaws in their flight and damage models.
There are German,British,Japanese,Italian,etc planes who have such problems aswell,so this post of his does sound a bit one sided.
Also I'm very sure that Kwiatek knows,that the "hacked" version of the game is coming with unofficially reworked FM/DM's,who differ from the original ones.This is one of the hundred risks that the end user is taking when he chooses to use the broken code,and if this error is present in the P-51 FM,then it might be coming from there./I talk from myself/experience in this paragraph/

Anyway,Daidalos Team knows very well what's right and what's not in this game and be sure that we're doing whatever we can to make this game better,and that this report will be checked.

Not all the Mods involve changed FMs for "stock" aircraft, infact many of the bigger mod communities forbid this, and insist that if you want to alter the FM of one of the aircraft that come in the non-modded version of the game then you must make a new-slot version of it with the new FM, allowing users to choose between the modded and unmodded versions of the plane when setting up maps for play on and offline.

[Bulgarian]

Hello David603,
I know very well what I'm talking about,and I bet you do too.
There's no reason to play blind here.

[David603]

Originally Posted by Bulgarian

Hello David603,
I know very well what I'm talking about,and I bet you do too.
There's no reason to play blind here.

Yes, I know that it is possible to modify the FMs, DMs and anything else you want to modify in Il2 for your own benefit, though most of these mods fall foul of the CRT2, but most of the bigger mod communities are as keen to avoid cheating as I believe you are yourself, indeed, on one of the main multiplayer mod sites it is a bannable offence to talk about modifying the FMs of stock aircraft.

[Insuber]

Kwiatek,

I didn't know the expression "czech error", but to all good willing people who want to "correct" DM and FM "mistakes", I can tell another figure of speech:

you are throwing out the baby with the bath water.


http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/...the+bath+water


Regards,
Insuber

[Bulgarian]

@Kwiatek,
I see your motives and understand them,I cannot question them but I also believe that some of the actions you took are wrong.
Anyway,we at DT do know very well what in this game is in need of correction and it's not only the flight;damage;weapon models.Far more things beyond the "modder" knowledge have to be corrected/updated in IL-2.
My advice to the whole modding community is to restrict their attempts to "fix" the "hard code" things like the flight model (for example).You cannot calculate the polars,so basically you're doing nothing.Leave the things as they are,because this way you're bringing more harm than help here.
I will repeat that DT knows better than anyone,what has to be done and we have the best data to back up our actions.If you want something to be fixed,report it to us and do not fix it by yourselves.
This is the correct way for something to be "fixed" in IL-2,if it can be called that way.

@David603,

I see that this type of things are not clear to you,I'll be more than happy to enlight you for some of them via PM or e-mail,but this topic is not the place for this type of discussions.

[Kwiatek]

Originally Posted by Bulgarian

Well,if he's taking unauthorised actions over the FM/DM files of this game,then he should know that it is not very appropriate to come over the official boards of the game developer with this type of information.

Sry but for many years developer didn;t listening these community. 1C leave these game some time ago but old bugs were still alive. For my online player the FM and historical performacne of these planes are the most important thing in these game. Now we have possibility to check these old things and correct them in more right way, way which dont follow 1C team.

I still dont happy with actual situation with all these mods story for these game beacuse it divided and spoiled online playing. But until now there were not other option for correct many things. I still think that these things should be made for offical patches not in mods way but as i said there were not other option for now.

Also as such,he should know very well that the P-47 and P-51 are not the only planes who are experiencing flaws in their flight and damage models.
There are German,British,Japanese,Italian,etc planes who have such problems aswell,so this post of his does sound a bit one sided.

Yes it is true. Thats why these P-51 case is only some example of 1C errors.

I made many performance corrections for mosty western fronts planes ( both side) which would be relased as a new sloted planes ( stock ones was not touched) not only for P-51 but also for Fw 190 A series ( e.x. corrected 1C poor acceleration for these planes), Spitfires and 109s. Base for these corrections were original German, British and other documents not russian books. I saw many people were are very happy with these changes from both sides. They love new acceleration of Fw190A, performacne differences between Spifire MK1 and 109 E and many other things.

Also I'm very sure that Kwiatek knows,that the "hacked" version of the game is coming with unofficially reworked FM/DM's,who differ from the original ones.This is one of the hundred risks that the end user is taking when he chooses to use the broken code,and if this error is present in the P-51 FM,then it might be coming from there./I talk from myself/experience in this paragraph/

These is untrue statment. All Fm's data are coming from original game for stock planes. So these is not possible that e.x P-51 lenght error is coming from mods. Mods have nothing to do here. And as You said there are many other errors in these game. So really dont dump all guilt for mods. I think that we should rather thanks for it developer's ignorance.

Anyway,Daidalos Team knows very well what's right and what's not in this game and be sure that we're doing whatever we can to make this game better,and that this report will be checked.

I hope so thats why im here and reported whats is wrong.

EDIT:About the "Czech error" thing,I think that it's not good idea to use something that most people will not understand and also which cannot be well translated exactly to the language you're talking.Please take in account that the bigger part of DT are Czech.

Sry these is my fault i just used my country common sense of these "error"

Here is little explanation of these "common use" pharaphase

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=687074


I hope TD would make these game better and try to achive more historical and obcjetive performance of these all beautifull planes then 1C did.

I wish You all the best.

303_Kwiatek