4.13 development update discussion and feedback

[wWwebBrowser]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...375wFH-Sg#t=40

Is this view option still a possibility? Or have I not found the option in the current 4.12.2m game.

[Pugo3]

I searched the thread re head on shooting, with no results, so having just recently [finally] updated to 4.11/4.12, I wanted to ask regarding AI head on shooting ability. I started with Il-2 1946 4.07, and the ace level AI were very lethal in head on shooting abilities, and the current patches also have extremely deadly abilities as well [I think even more so] I also encounter this flying ROF in the ace mode. In every case, the AI is almost without exception able to track the most aggressive evasive measures; skidding, jinxing, speed variance, anything.

I would respectfully ask the TD team to perhaps tone this down a bit by somehow factoring in a human error element, to soften the 'I'm flying against my xxxx processor' factor. I have read others comments regarding defeating this practice by countering with head on burst in response to these attacks, and the AI do in fact most times veer away - wonderful to not have continuous head on collisions as the only option! ...But if I veer away, I invariably get hit by "magic bullets", seemingly impossible levels of accuracy and dexterity to follow my every jinx/skid/drop away - I watch the tracers dance perfectly along with my every micro-second move and just can't defeat this.

...or can someone educate me as to the amount of kills recorded in combat accounts that would support the present levels of lethality found in the game to date? Perhaps the Russian aces were more in the habit of aggressive head on attacks as a matter of course and conveyed these accounts in Russian documents. I would appreciate any referrals to combat accounts that any would know of to educate me on this topic if I am mistaken and this was in fact a common method of Ace success.

I very much enjoy all the improvements thus far, and join with the others praising this accomplishment. I think it is best to have the high levels for Ace mode, it should be challenging and I accept that I will lose more than I win, but the head on shots are a stumbling block for me in that they seem overly computer generated and consistent even for experienced aces. Getting damaged at the very beginning of a dogfight at Ace level means your practically dead before you've even gotten going. Please consider reviewing this element in light of historical combat accounts, or as I said, please anyone provide me the historic accounts I previously requested so I can reconcile myself to the current flight sim head on shot capabilities.

Thank you,

p3

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by Pugo3

I searched the thread re head on shooting, with no results, so having just recently [finally] updated to 4.11/4.12, I wanted to ask regarding AI head on shooting ability. I started with Il-2 1946 4.07, and the ace level AI were very lethal in head on shooting abilities, and the current patches also have extremely deadly abilities as well [I think even more so] I also encounter this flying ROF in the ace mode. In every case, the AI is almost without exception able to track the most aggressive evasive measures; skidding, jinxing, speed variance, anything.

I would respectfully ask the TD team to perhaps tone this down a bit by somehow factoring in a human error element, to soften the 'I'm flying against my xxxx processor' factor. I have read others comments regarding defeating this practice by countering with head on burst in response to these attacks, and the AI do in fact most times veer away - wonderful to not have continuous head on collisions as the only option! ...But if I veer away, I invariably get hit by "magic bullets", seemingly impossible levels of accuracy and dexterity to follow my every jinx/skid/drop away - I watch the tracers dance perfectly along with my every micro-second move and just can't defeat this.

...or can someone educate me as to the amount of kills recorded in combat accounts that would support the present levels of lethality found in the game to date? Perhaps the Russian aces were more in the habit of aggressive head on attacks as a matter of course and conveyed these accounts in Russian documents. I would appreciate any referrals to combat accounts that any would know of to educate me on this topic if I am mistaken and this was in fact a common method of Ace success.

I very much enjoy all the improvements thus far, and join with the others praising this accomplishment. I think it is best to have the high levels for Ace mode, it should be challenging and I accept that I will lose more than I win, but the head on shots are a stumbling block for me in that they seem overly computer generated and consistent even for experienced aces. Getting damaged at the very beginning of a dogfight at Ace level means your practically dead before you've even gotten going. Please consider reviewing this element in light of historical combat accounts, or as I said, please anyone provide me the historic accounts I previously requested so I can reconcile myself to the current flight sim head on shot capabilities.

Thank you,

p3

If you're playing against Ace AI then it's not as much of a surprise. Ace pilots tended to be confident, capable and aggressive. When TD implemented the AI changes they changed the whole system... in earlier patches the AI could see 360 degrees. Even through the cowling of their aircraft. Now the AI can only see what you can see through your cockpit. What they do now is make a guess as to where they saw you last with a degree of probability and fire. So even if they can't see you they can try and shoot you like a human.

I believe if you turn on the Arcade=1 mode in the config.ini file it will show you graphically what the AI is doing and what degree of error they have in firing at you from all angles. They are better at deflection shooting now but they are more limited in the opportunities they can employ it without some degree of guessing.

I think maybe adjusting expectations? The Ace should be a top tier opponent... something you run into rarely or never. Your Beurling, Hartmann, or Gabreski as examples. Someone who is really gifted at being a combat pilot. Folks like Beurling could fly into an enemy formation and shoot down a couple of planes at a time before the enemy could react - even Allied commanders didn't believe Beurling's kills because the film camera was setup to record ahead of him and he was shooting them down at 60-90 degree deflection angles with only a few bullets each.

[Treetop64]

I agree with what IceFire talks about.

Frankly, what is needed is more of a personal adjustment to the perception of what "Ace" actually means within the current AI routines. Ace AI pilots aren't merely the pilots with five (or ten) or more kills. Ace AI pilots are the rare gifted ones that an individual player may only rarely or never run into. The ones who can get in, get kills, and get out almost at will. Correspondingly, Ace AI pilots should be every bit as difficult to fight against as Pugo describes.

A lot of the problem arises when players use old campaigns with the AI skill set according to how the AI behaved in older versions of the game, prior to the re-write. Now, with the new AI routines, it is perhaps necessary to reset AI skills to lower levels in the legacy campaigns and ensure they set accordingly in newer ones.

[Riksen]

In my humble opinion, the AI are good enough and most of the time offer a good level of challenge. One thing I do want is more control over ur squad when u r leading. It seens that regardless of what I do the ais will always break off from the formation and engage the enemy. Maybe, they could implement something that would prevent the ai from breaking formation unless being told to by the cover me command or when being shot at. This would give a much better control of the fight when u r leading. Another problem is the break and rejoin.... Maybe we could have a rejoin that would actually make the ai literally abandon whatever it is doing to get back to u and a break formation that would make it fend for himself. The unresponsive ai is the only thing that bothers me when playing offline ...

Regards
Riksen

[Treetop64]

Originally Posted by Riksen

In my humble opinion, the AI are good enough and most of the time offer a good level of challenge. One thing I do want is more control over ur squad when u r leading. It seens that regardless of what I do the ais will always break off from the formation and engage the enemy. Maybe, they could implement something that would prevent the ai from breaking formation unless being told to by the cover me command or when being shot at. This would give a much better control of the fight when u r leading. Another problem is the break and rejoin.... Maybe we could have a rejoin that would actually make the ai literally abandon whatever it is doing to get back to u and a break formation that would make it fend for himself. The unresponsive ai is the only thing that bothers me when playing offline ...

Regards
Riksen

Even though they automatically form up on you after taking off, simply order the AI to rejoin after you take off anyway, and re-issue the order every ten or fifteen minutes or so (the persistence of the player-issued command "times out" after a while). Also, particularly if you're flying bombers, issue the order again before crossing any waypoints approaching the target objective. They'll stay with you unless directly attacked or damaged, or ordered to do otherwise.

Very handy when flying bombing missions and you want your flight to stay in formation and drop their payload on command simultaneously.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by IceFire

I believe if you turn on the Arcade=1 mode in the config.ini file it will show you graphically what the AI is doing and what degree of error they have in firing at you from all angles.

Not exactly. Arcade mode just shows you where the enemy's bullets are hitting, and approximately what angle they were fired from. It doesn't give you info about hit percentages. If there's a game feature which allows you to see what the enemy's hit percentages are after each shot, I'd love to see it!

Originally Posted by IceFire

They are better at deflection shooting now but they are more limited in the opportunities they can employ it without some degree of guessing.

AI - or at least certain types of AI - will also sometimes hesitate a moment before firing, which simulates "target acquisition" and aiming time.

Originally Posted by IceFire

I think maybe adjusting expectations? The Ace should be a top tier opponent... something you run into rarely or never.

One of the long-standing problems with AI in the game is that the capabilities of the various AI levels are never spelled out and many different elements of combat flying are combined into one generic rating. A new problem is that, as AI programming has been improved, older missions and campaigns have to be reworked.

Currently, Ace AI represents exactly what Icefire is talking about, a hypothetical pilot with top 1% eyesight, aggression, situational awareness, reaction times, object tracking, air combat maneuvering, gunnery, bombing, rocketry, navigation and G-tolerance. (Realistically, no WW2-era ace, even the top aces, possessed all those traits.)

Before the 4.12 patch, however, Ace AI represented "tough but beatable by a good player."

These days, lesser aces (i.e., 5-10 kills) are better represented by Veteran or even Average AI.

In some ways, Rookie AI now best represents "average" pilots of most air forces who lacked the aggressiveness and skills to even shoot down one enemy aircraft (approximately 90% of U.S. fighter pilots, even in combat zones. Probably similar for other air forces).

Certainly, Rookie AI is necessary for bomber intercept missions because gunners are still too good at ranging target distance and speed, too good at acquiring and tracking targets, and aren't hindered by plane vibration, turbulence or slipstream effects.

IL2 also doesn't model AI inferior to Rookie AI, at the "cannon fodder/ student/ unqualified" level, despite the fact that depending on the year and the air force, novice combat pilots might have had as little as 40 hours of total flight instruction, VFR only instrument rating, no gunnery practice, no meteorology or ground school training, limited target recognition skills and no flight time at all "in type".

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Not exactly. Arcade mode just shows you where the enemy's bullets are hitting, and approximately what angle they were fired from. It doesn't give you info about hit percentages. If there's a game feature which allows you to see what the enemy's hit percentages are after each shot, I'd love to see it!

Ok I checked, it's not enabled in the release version of 4.12. It was on in the 4.12 alpha and beta. It's not a percentage but rather it shows the sight line in a graphical display and shows the angle that they are estimating for the deflection shooting - basically the AI are now facing the same constraints a human pilot would. Maybe more can be showing in Arcade for 4.13.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by IceFire

Maybe more can be showing in Arcade for 4.13.

I'd appreciate it if a lot of test features remained enabled in 4.13, since it would allow users to better troubleshoot bugs.

Since AI now has to estimate deflection (and presumably speed and range), that gives me confidence that DT will be able to easily fix the remaining issues with AI gunnery.

Currently, even Ace AI planes aren't very good at correcting their aiming point, or holding their fire if they can't correct their aiming point to hit. For example, if you're being shot at while both you and your pursuer are in a tight turn, your opponent should realize that he's missing if he doesn't see hits on your plane after a couple of seconds and should try to pull more lead. But, if he can't pull more lead, then he should stop firing to conserve ammo.

For flexible gunnery, Ace AI should know to hold their fire until bogies get within 300-500 yards/meters. At any level of AI gunners should also have much more trouble with range and speed estimation, particularly when using hand-turned guns and/or iron sights.

[Pursuivant]

Peter Townsend (RAF squadron leader and ace in the Battle of Britain) writes in "Duel of Eagles" that it was possible for experienced aircraft fitters to completely refuel and rearm his Hurricane in about 5 minutes. Additionally, in this time, they could check the oil, replace the oxygen tanks and clean the windshield!

With that in mind, it doesn't seem unreasonable for IL2 to allow rearming and refueling, limited to just replenishing fuel and ammunition, only for single-engined aircraft, only in specially designated areas of certain airfields, only after at least 5 minutes of waiting with the engine off, and only if the airfield isn't damaged or under attack.

Repair, beyond doing things like fixing jammed guns, should still be impossible. Likewise, it shouldn't be possible to replenish external stores in such a brief period of time.

As for rates of replenishment, I'd conservatively suggest that fuel can be replaced at a rate of approximately 10 gallons per minute, and ammunition can be replenished at a rate of approximately 500 rounds per minute.

This is based 5 minutes "turnaround time" for rearming and refueling, 97 gallons of fuel and 2,640 bullets in a Hurricane Mk I, and the assumption that planes landed with approximately half-full fuel tanks but completely empty guns.

Unrealistically fast rearming, refueling and repair (RRR) could be added as a option for dogfight maps, using realistic RRR as a departure point.