4.13 development update discussion and feedback

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by gaunt1

There is no place for those prototypes in this game until we get an useful LW bomber that was produced in series, like the Do-217 or He-177 first.

Several Do-217K variants already exist in the game and the He-177 will be forthcoming in the 4.13 patch. Or, were you specifically requesting flyable versions of these planes?

[Pursuivant]

For "missing planes" almost nobody's mentioned the lack of French and Polish types.

Currently, although there are some frustrating gaps, you can put together early, mid, or late war fighter, attack or bomber campaigns for Germany, Japan (at least the IJN, not the IJAAF), Finland, UK/Commonwealth, USAAF, USN/USMC and the Soviet Union. You can also put together an early to mid war fighter, attack or bomber campaign for Italy.

But, you can only do very limited early war fighter campaigns for campaign for Poland, and technically you can't even do that for France (The Hawk 75 and Ms406 variants in the game are Finnish).

It's easy to forget that both Poland and France had relatively large airforces and were desperately attempting to expand and modernize in the face of the Nazi threat when they were invaded. In both 1939 in Poland and in 1940 in France, had their armies been able to hold against the German Blitzkrieg, the French or Polish Air Forces might have been able to put up a credible defense of their countries.

While there's a natural tendency to want late war planes, there are many fascinating early-war types that nobody seems to know or care about.

[majorfailure]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

For "missing planes" almost nobody's mentioned the lack of French and Polish types.

Currently, although there are some frustrating gaps, you can put together early, mid, or late war fighter, attack or bomber campaigns for Germany, Japan (at least the IJN, not the IJAAF), Finland, UK/Commonwealth, USAAF, USN/USMC and the Soviet Union. You can also put together an early to mid war fighter, attack or bomber campaign for Italy.

But, you can only do very limited early war fighter campaigns for campaign for Poland, and technically you can't even do that for France (The Hawk 75 and Ms406 variants in the game are Finnish).

It's easy to forget that both Poland and France had relatively large airforces and were desperately attempting to expand and modernize in the face of the Nazi threat when they were invaded. In both 1939 in Poland and in 1940 in France, had their armies been able to hold against the German Blitzkrieg, the French or Polish Air Forces might have been able to put up a credible defense of their countries.

While there's a natural tendency to want late war planes, there are many fascinating early-war types that nobody seems to know or care about.

But for most of these planes there is limited use, both regarding scenario(s) and time frame. And IIRC the maps needed would have to be made, too. IJA/German planes wouldn't need the maps, and could be used for almost the entire war after their introduction.

Maybe it would be a good idea to have a few bombers that are currently AI only made flyable with a working cockpit for pilot/copilot and bombardier without the other crew stations?

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by majorfailure

But for most of these planes there is limited use, both regarding scenario(s) and time frame.

But you forget that after the fall of Poland and France, Germany stole all the French and Polish airplanes for their own use, or to sell off to their allies. Also, some Polish and French types were flown to Allied or neutral countries just before the German occupation and were interned when they landed. Also, prior to WW2, both Poland and France exported some of their planes to other countries.

That means the better French and Polish types flew for the Germans, German Allies AND the Western Allies in limited capacity until lack of spare parts finally grounded them. So, for 1941-43 scenarios, a few Polish and French types would vastly expand the number of campaign possibilities.

In particular, the Dewoitine D.520, Potez 630, PZL P.37, and some variant of the PZL P.24 would be welcome additions to the game. Not just because they'd give both France and Poland viable fighter and bomber types, but also because they'd round out the Romanian, Italian and German orders of battle!

But, it's all wishful thinking. What new features we get in the game all depends on what the people with the proper skills are willing to make.

[gaunt1]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Several Do-217K variants already exist in the game and the He-177 will be forthcoming in the 4.13 patch. Or, were you specifically requesting flyable versions of these planes?

Yes, flyable. As I said earlier, it is absolutely no fun flying Ju-88 and He-111 starting from 1942, unless there arent any enemy planes around. (in fact, they are already little more than sitting ducks even in 1941), They are completely unable to defend themselves, with their low speed and useless guns.
What makes me really sad, there are more than enough cockpit references for the most important Do-217 variants (E2/E4, K1, M1), but no attempt was made to model them properly (OK, except one mod). We are slowly getting more and more multi engined flyable bombers which is really good, (cant wait for the B-24) but unfortunately none of them are german or japanese. Yes, I know its incredibly hard to model a cockpit, but at least adding a later He-111, (H11 or H16) with better armament would be more or less easier, so we would get a LW bomber that is more useful than what we currently have. One more point: By 1942, LW barely had any H-2 and H-6 variants, they were all converted to H-11/16.
The only is hope that the He-177 cockpit project will start someday. I'd gladly donate money to them, (even though I still think the price is too much) but here in India people arent rich at all, including myself.

[majorfailure]

Originally Posted by gaunt1

Yes, flyable. As I said earlier, it is absolutely no fun flying Ju-88 and He-111 starting from 1942, unless there arent any enemy planes around. (in fact, they are already little more than sitting ducks even in 1941), They are completely unable to defend themselves, with their low speed and useless guns.

For an enemy that knows where you are and can predict where you will likley be, you are right.
But the reasonable speed of the Ju-88 can make it a formidable weapon against an unknowing enemy, in with lots of alt, out in a shallow dive - any early war fighte will have trouble intercepting you.
And the He-111 can be used, too, as long as the enemy does not have cannon armed fighters it is flying tank -only head on passes bring them down without using lots of ammo per plane - and against an unprepared enemy a massed formation of He-111 can get results.

That said -both of them are pretty useless later in the war where fighters are fast and well armed enough to successfully catch, overtake and head-on them or even shoot them down from 6'o clock.

[The_WOZ]

I fly the Ju-88 a lot and the main problem I find is the MG-81 range is too small compared to the turret MGs on allied planes.
The MG-81 bullets only exists for about 650/700m, while on allied bombers the bullets can go as far as 1500m or more. This allows fighters to get too close before the gunners have a chance to damage them. (But AI gunners still open fire when the enemy is at 1500m like in other bombers)

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by The_WOZ

I fly the Ju-88 a lot and the main problem I find is the MG-81 range is too small compared to the turret MGs on allied planes.

That's the difference between 12.7/.50 caliber and 7.62 mm/.30 caliber guns.

Originally Posted by The_WOZ

(But AI gunners still open fire when the enemy is at 1500m like in other bombers)

I haven't encountered this, not even for rookie gunners. Typically, rookie gunners will make a short burst at about 500 m, then stop until you get to about 300 m.

Given the huge number of Ju-88 variants, a "fix" that would both make the Ju-88A more effective and which would work around the problem that the rear gunner can't man both guns would be to introduce a version that has a single window with a twin MG 81 mounted in it.

[gaunt1]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Given the huge number of Ju-88 variants, a "fix" that would both make the Ju-88A more effective and which would work around the problem that the rear gunner can't man both guns would be to introduce a version that has a single window with a twin MG 81 mounted in it.

Agree, it would be great if both guns could fire. As far as I know, in reality, the bombardier/front gunner often left his position and manned the second gun.
Another "fix" would be adding the Ju-88A14, which was more survivable. It was primarily an anti shipping dive bomber variant (but widely used against ground targets on eastern front too), so it had a little more armor to withstand the AAA fire from ships. And it would be really easy to make, both the external model (just add MGFF in place of bombsight window, like the torp bomber A4), and cockpit (A4 torp cockpit, with dive bombsight from ordinary A4)

[The_WOZ]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

That's the difference between 12.7/.50 caliber and 7.62 mm/.30 caliber guns.
.

Yeah, I agree a bullet with a relative higher gunpowder load will travel farther, but what I mean is that in game, bullets _dissappear_ after 600m (Just made a test in the QMB and you can fly at 590m from the bomber, directly into the bullet stream of the bottom MG-81z and all the tracers will dissappear right in front of your propeller and you'll not receive a single hit)

Looking at the gun parameters of the game, MG-81 bullets exist (if Im reading it right) for 1.1seconds after leaving the gun.
Russian ShKAS, another 7.62mm gun with higher muzzle velocity but slighty smaller cartridge, the bullets weight is almost the same that the MG-81s, yet it exists for 2.2seconds after leaving the gun.
For the Browning .50 bullet life varies with round type, but is 6.4 secs on average
For the MG-FF, heavier round and slower muzzle velocity, average bullet life is 2.8secs
For the Breda SAFAT 12.7mm, which is a Browning .50 with a smaller cartridge and thus slower muzzle velocity (only 30m/sec faster than the MG-81) the bullet life time is the same as the .50: 6.4 secs on average.


It sure seems something is off with the MG-81, seeing as bullet life time is not exactly directly related with the ballistic properties of the gun.