Leading Edge Slats on the Me-109

[taildraggernut]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Right....

What you don't understand is that speed reduction reduces radius and improves turn performance until Va is reached.

The airplane that slows down the fastest to Va will win the instantenous turn fight..

Right

which still puts the Spitfire at advantage (which you have confirmed yourself) having extensively reminded us of how longitudinaly unstable the Spit is and how easy it was to put load on due to it's sensitivity in pitch it is going to be the best at bleeding off that energy quickly, like you said before the 109 really must keep speed up in order to have a turn advantage over the Spit.

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Exactly.

He is flying a yo-yo and not a constant altitude turn. By combining the climb advantage of the Bf-109 at low speed climbs with the advantage of the slats, Erwin Leykauf is defeating the constant altitude turn performance advantage of the Spitfires he is fighting.

Yes....assuming the Spitfire remains in a level turn, in which case the Spitfire is simply making a mistake rather than suffering a disadvantage, the Spit has the option to extend away by split 's' and dive and wait for the 109 to chase and pull him into another attempt at turning.

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Are you fishing and this is bait?

What was the condition of the Bf-109 and the pilot? Was the aircraft damaged? Was the pilot wounded? Was it a real spin or did the pilot pass out??

In otherwords, it is an interesting story but without the details definately does not contradict the findings of the RLM or the RAE.

it seems overly paranoid of you to view this with such scepticism, it is simply an account of a 109 making a piloting mistake and spinning, nothing sinister.

[Crumpp]

taildraggernut

Trolling??

[Crumpp]

especially how you claim it was pretty much unspinnable because it had slats.

Spin resistant is not the same as unspinnable.

Spin resistant is a specific term in aeronautical engineering. The problem is not my language but the fact it is being interpretated without the realization it is a defined measured condition.

At the applicant's option, the airplane may be demonstrated to be spin resistant by the following:

(i) During the stall maneuver contained in § 23.201, the pitch control must be pulled back and held against the stop. Then, using ailerons and rudders in the proper direction, it must be possible to maintain wings-level flight within 15 degrees of bank and to roll the airplane from a 30 degree bank in one direction to a 30 degree bank in the other direction;

(ii) Reduce the airplane speed using pitch control at a rate of approximately one knot per second until the pitch control reaches the stop; then, with the pitch control pulled back and held against the stop, apply full rudder control in a manner to promote spin entry for a period of seven seconds or through a 360 degree heading change, whichever occurs first. If the 360 degree heading change is reached first, it must have taken no fewer than four seconds. This maneuver must be performed first with the ailerons in the neutral position, and then with the ailerons deflected opposite the direction of turn in the most adverse manner. Power and airplane configuration must be set in accordance with § 23.201(e) without change during the maneuver. At the end of seven seconds or a 360 degree heading change, the airplane must respond immediately and normally to primary flight controls applied to regain coordinated, unstalled flight without reversal of control effect and without exceeding the temporary control forces specified by § 23.143(c); and

(iii) Compliance with §§ 23.201 and 23.203 must be demonstrated with the airplane in uncoordinated flight, corresponding to one ball width displacement on a slip-skid indicator, unless one ball width displacement cannot be obtained with full rudder, in which case the demonstration must be with full rudder applied.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/14/23.221

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Spin resistant is not the same as unspinnable.

Spin resistant is a specific term in aeronautical engineering. The problem is not my language but the fact it is being interpretated without the realization it is a defined measured condition.

Ok, but you didn't use the term spin resistant in your post (No 61 for instance.)

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Again, they act like training wheels on a bicycle. In otherwords, it should be EXTREMELY difficult to spin the aircraft and very easy to recover.

The advantage of the slats is in preventing spins. Find a report on the spin characteristics of the Bf-109.

There is an engineering reason there is not one.

There were obviously quite a few 109 pilots who didn't know their aircraft was spin resistant and spun in making a piloting mistakes.

[Crumpp]

There were obviously quite a few 109 pilots who didn't know their aircraft was spin resistant and spun in making a piloting mistakes.

Where is that proof and in comparison to what?

No 61 for instance

Is absolutely true, did you read the spin testing by Mtt? Did you read the RAE evaluation on flying qualities?

What is the problem? Is something difficult to interpret?

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

What is the problem?

That's what I am asking - what is the problem exactly with the 109 in game? How much different should it be? Which maneuveurs do you find difficult to complete and you spin. Which situations exactly make you spin your 109.

I agree to the characteristics posted by you or Kurfurst, the 109 should be stable and easy to fly in general, but you need to be in good control. Good 109 pilots in this sim only very rarely spin their ride, the not so good one do sometimes. It works pretty well. It is actually easy to fly if you know what you're doing, you won't spin her, simple as that.

Once the mistake is made (e.g too much foot in the wrong moment) the spin can be violent (but not always) and it's difficult to recover unles you're in good control of your 109. If you are you, won't spin her to start with. Maybe it's really the matter of FF as I can 'feel' the a/c and the spin coming. I don't know... All I see in the game is experienced 109 pilots won't spin at all.

To me it seems you were saying the 109 would not spin even if the pilot made a mistake. I was not so sure about that. Of course I've read all the reports, no worries.

I'll just jump in here and say stalls for all aircraft are easily the least realistic part of the game in that they always drop instantly into a spin, and the subsequent spin is almost always unrealistically difficult to recover from. This includes the P-39. With effort one might stop the spin from going too far but this is hardly realistic. Individual stall/spin characteristics are also missing.

[taildraggernut]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Trolling??

explain?