4.11 - AI debugging

[Lagarto]

Originally Posted by IceFire

One could argue that this is working as designed... human players online certainly do this and it's not impossible to imagine pilots, caught up in the heat of battle, would also do the very same thing and make the same mistakes.

You and your 'explanations'... Try to think in terms of real, wartime pilots defending their base, tearing through a formation of bombers just to scatter them and make them jettison bombs (that's what they should and would do), not a bunch of online jockeys desperately trying to score points.

[K_Freddie]

Well, think of it this way.

A fighter escort will give an attacker very little chance of a second bomber attack, and this seemed the case over England as well as France/Germany.
The attacking fighter is now faced with another fighter, which he has to destroy in order to carry on. If he lets the escorting fighter get away, it'll be back the next day... so destroy it (and pilot) now, by any means possible. with attrition the fighters, or pilot abilty next time will be lower, then one would be free to hammer the bombers - This I would say is the reality.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by Lagarto

You and your 'explanations'... Try to think in terms of real, wartime pilots defending their base, tearing through a formation of bombers just to scatter them and make them jettison bombs (that's what they should and would do), not a bunch of online jockeys desperately trying to score points.

Me and my explanations? Ohhhkay. Not sure where I've offended but, sorry? I'm just asking to think about this and offer an alternative perspective.

Humans are humans no matter what. So online jockeys aren't really all that different from other humans. No fear of death but still the same propensity towards target fixation.

Rather than this being a bug it can be considerd a feature. You're not wrong in asking for some changes to this behavior. Certrainly some pilots would be more disciplined. So, instead of a grand change, how about building in some variability? Rookie pilots could have a higher chance of becoming target fixated and firing on aircraft that are already stricken. Ace pilots would have far less of a chance or no chance at all depending on the programming. Lots of options.

[Lagarto]

Originally Posted by IceFire

Rather than this being a bug it can be considerd a feature.

Now, that's classic I've been hearing it for some ten years, initially from Oleg himself, then from his devoted followers, for some reason called 'fan boys', as you might remember. Almost every bug can be 'considered a feature' with a bit of imagination. Why then fix them and make this sim better? Isn't it easier to imagine and 'explain'?

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by Lagarto

Now, that's classic I've been hearing it for some ten years, initially from Oleg himself, then from his devoted followers, for some reason called 'fan boys', as you might remember. Almost every bug can be 'considered a feature' with a bit of imagination. Why then fix them and make this sim better? Isn't it easier to imagine and 'explain'?

Dude, I honestly have no idea where the angry attitude is coming from. Let me make it clear then. What you suggest doesn't automatically make for a better experice with the A.I. Perhaps one thing is gained but at the loss of another behavior which is not inherently wrong IMHO. Target fixation did happen.

So, no idea what the problem is here, but I think there's a great opportunity to create something interesting with something that the AI already does.

[Stig1207]

Originally Posted by IceFire

Dude, I honestly have no idea where the angry attitude is coming from. Let me make it clear then. What you suggest doesn't automatically make for a better experice with the A.I. Perhaps one thing is gained but at the loss of another behavior which is not inherently wrong IMHO. Target fixation did happen.

So, no idea what the problem is here, but I think there's a great opportunity to create something interesting with something that the AI already does.

Agree with Ice, no reason not to keep this discussion civil.

That being said, I also think that Lagarto has a good case in all calling this AI behavior a bug. After all, it's not one AI pilot becoming target fixated, it's the whole flight. While it's reasonable that the AI make mistakes, after all that 's only human, but if the silly byggers all make the same mistakes all the time they shouldn't be flying high-powered, heavily armed aircraft.

/Stig

[Lagarto]

Where the angry attitude is coming from? For years and years anyone reporting a bug was immediately attacked by a bunch of fans blindly infatuated with this game. Their 'noble' efforts to 'defend' the game were actually counterproductive because they slowed down its development. You can't fix or improve anything if you think everything is just perfect.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by Lagarto

Where the angry attitude is coming from? For years and years anyone reporting a bug was immediately attacked by a bunch of fans blindly infatuated with this game. Their 'noble' efforts to 'defend' the game were actually counterproductive because they slowed down its development. You can't fix or improve anything if you think everything is just perfect.

This is entirely up to you then. I don't feel that I jumped on you but I did ask for you to think about the request. I even agreed with you that a change could be made but with a little more subtlety. Yet, you've continued to be hostile. I'll take it in stride.

I'm going to keep on challenging and making my own suggestions but please do not mistake it for any attitude on my part. This should and can be a civil discussion where an idea is formed, challenged, and forged into something constructive.

[FC99]

Originally Posted by Lagarto

Where the angry attitude is coming from? For years and years anyone reporting a bug was immediately attacked by a bunch of fans blindly infatuated with this game. Their 'noble' efforts to 'defend' the game were actually counterproductive because they slowed down its development. You can't fix or improve anything if you think everything is just perfect.

It's developers who are deciding what get fixed and what not. There is no reason to get angry just because somebody have different opinion than you. What you consider a bug might be a feature for someone else and I never saw AI in this game doing something that humans don't do too.

In case of chasing planes with dead engine that will be fixed to some extent in 4.12. I will not completely remove the possibility for AI to attack harmless planes.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by Stig1207

Agree with Ice, no reason not to keep this discussion civil.

That being said, I also think that Lagarto has a good case in all calling this AI behavior a bug. After all, it's not one AI pilot becoming target fixated, it's the whole flight. While it's reasonable that the AI make mistakes, after all that 's only human, but if the silly byggers all make the same mistakes all the time they shouldn't be flying high-powered, heavily armed aircraft.

/Stig

Absolutely right Stig. I even suggested that some sort of update to how it works so that some AI do become fixated while others are smarter or more disciplined. The AI could roll some kind of percentage probability for being fixated depending on skill level.

It's insane that Ace AI would do the same as a rookie.