4.11 - AI debugging

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by K_Freddie

It seems so as every time they know exactly where to 'blind' shoot with a combination of all control surfaces, nearly a 100% of the time, which is an impossibility for any human, hence AI

Not only that.. with all the control surface agitation the AI still maintains a superior speed advantage.

I've practised my skills with the ace AI for years, but have never seen anything like this... it's like chalk and cheese. As I said .. a BIG AI fudge has occurred.

One doesn't mind the ability to 'lead shoot', but the ability to place the a/c in any 3D position without 'costs'... is a bit much. This in not coming from a noob.. it's coming from a 4000hr plus on FW190s sim person.

I'm trying to visualize the problems and I'm not 100% sure what I'm expecting to see. Do you have any tracks recorded that illustrate what's going on? I'd like to see... if you can point out the timecode when weird things are happening that would be even more useful.

[Bearcat]

AI react on your plane attitude not on your control inputs.

That is good to know ...

That's not intended behavior, we will fix it when we find exact cause for this.

That is good to know as well and hopefully will probably address the issues I raised with the friendly AI

Quote:
When fighting the Ace AI in the original IL2 a combination of their behavior and the vastly different flight/weapon models compared to IL246 makes it as interesting a challenge as ever. I would definitely say that IL246 is far better than the original IL2, but that there may be a few things worth looking at in the original IL2 AI etc. that might offer a useful perspective.

I don't know about that .. I think the 1946 AI is much better overall than the original IL2 AI.. in every way..

Quote:
Just like a chess master playing a computer, it would be intriguing to see if within the limits of the IL2 flight models and hard settings, how tough the AI could be made.
It took purpose built monster machine to beat human champion in chess. Chess is great game but you always have same position at the start. Same number and type of pieces. Movement is limited on 8x8 board. Compare that with Il2, 300+ planes, combinations of types, numbers and positions are infinite. And you want AI to make decisions in a fraction of a second. This is hard task for AI.

I think the enemy AI is pretty nice.. especially since 4.10 .. it is the behavior of the friendly AI that gets me.. Heck if my AI wingman acted like the wing men of the bandit I am chasing I would be happier.. and maybe I am wrong but it seems to me that they do not both act the same. Even when I tell them what to do more often than I'd like there will be 3 or four friendlies flying around me while I have 3-5 bandits taking turns ripping me a new one at the same time..

That is correct.

Another good to know..

What to do now, some says AI shoots too good and some says it is too bad? No way to please everybody.

I dunno about that one either.. I don't do too many headons with ace AI .. I usually loose no matter what they are flying.

Originally Posted by Luno13 View Post
The AI in a historical combat flight sim should represent the skill level of a human who has limited experience, training, and has emotions such as fear.

Humans online have way more experience in gunnery and maneuvering than any of the top WWII aces and and make maneuvers without feeling strain on their bodies, or with fears of death.
I'm afraid that we must make compromise here and make AI bit better than historical. IMO using Rookies and Average AI for the most part and some Veterans and Aces in historical missions provides good approximation of WWII skill level.

I agree 100%. This is exactly my take and what I do when I made missions ..

[Luno13]

Thanks for the Q & A, FC!

[Stig1207]

Quote:
I think the enemy AI is pretty nice.. especially since 4.10 .. it is the behavior of the friendly AI that gets me.. Heck if my AI wingman acted like the wing men of the bandit I am chasing I would be happier.. and maybe I am wrong but it seems to me that they do not both act the same. Even when I tell them what to do more often than I'd like there will be 3 or four friendlies flying around me while I have 3-5 bandits taking turns ripping me a new one at the same time..


Hitting the nail on the head. The friendly AI are pretty much clueless compared to the opposing AI. A wingman would try to clear his lead's tail if he's in a position to do so, without waiting to be ordered to do so, and vice versa, that's the idea of flying as a pair, teamwork, supporting one another.
The enemy AI can do it, and the friendlies should be able to do so.

Stig

[SPAD-1949]

Originally Posted by Stig1207

Quote:
I think the enemy AI is pretty nice.. especially since 4.10 .. it is the behavior of the friendly AI that gets me.. Heck if my AI wingman acted like the wing men of the bandit I am chasing I would be happier.. and maybe I am wrong but it seems to me that they do not both act the same. Even when I tell them what to do more often than I'd like there will be 3 or four friendlies flying around me while I have 3-5 bandits taking turns ripping me a new one at the same time..


Hitting the nail on the head. The friendly AI are pretty much clueless compared to the opposing AI. A wingman would try to clear his lead's tail if he's in a position to do so, without waiting to be ordered to do so, and vice versa, that's the idea of flying as a pair, teamwork, supporting one another.
The enemy AI can do it, and the friendlies should be able to do so.

Stig

Well I saw a big difference in AI behaviour between 4.10 and 4.11
With 4.10 enemy AI was extremely agressive and there was little chance surviving a 4 vs 4 fighter encounter where all were set ace. Usually you were killed within seconds from a headon sniper shot, less then 5 rounds necessary. Also friendly AI were agressive and you stood little chance staying in formation when heading towards the enemy.

With 4.11 evrything seems a little to sissy. Your flight leader avoids the encounter, enemy AI lost lots of agressivity.
I added a simple fighter mission where it was immediately to be seen. Try it in 4.09, 4.10 and 4.11 and you will easyly recognize the differences.

[K_Freddie]

Control surface positions...
I'm not sure how the AI is modelled but in this pic the rudder and elevator positions are at max = instant violent stall.... Not so with the AI.
These positions are held throughout the turn.... Also
Doing a lot of crimea quickies... The Spit AI can do the most amazing turns and not black out, then while doing a mild turn just flies into the ground.
I'm beginning to enjoy pre-modded IL2 more

[Stig1207]

Originally Posted by SPAD-1949

Well I saw a big difference in AI behaviour between 4.10 and 4.11
With 4.10 enemy AI was extremely agressive and there was little chance surviving a 4 vs 4 fighter encounter where all were set ace. Usually you were killed within seconds from a headon sniper shot, less then 5 rounds necessary. Also friendly AI were agressive and you stood little chance staying in formation when heading towards the enemy.

With 4.11 evrything seems a little to sissy. Your flight leader avoids the encounter, enemy AI lost lots of agressivity.
I added a simple fighter mission where it was immediately to be seen. Try it in 4.09, 4.10 and 4.11 and you will easyly recognize the differences.

I must stress that I haven't had time to try your mission probably, but I have flown it a few times in 4.11.and 4.10 on autopilot, and yes, I can see the difference. I think though that this stems from the overhaul the AI recieved in 4.11, where the AI won't always just wade into any fight, but sometimes may seek a more advantageous position before engaging or even running away.
So in general the AI in 4.11 are probably less aggressive in 4.11 than in earlier versions, but on the otherhand that probably makes them more 'human'. I consider the enemy AI much improved and more of a challenge in 4.11, but in some respects the friendly AI arn't in the same league.

I have attached a ntrk to illustrate what I (and Bearcat) have mentioned, where the friendlies don't react to bandits flying along side them and attacking the flight leader (yours truly), until I request assitance. In the track i haven't I haven't given the order to 'attack fighters' so the friendlies just follow me around in formation and then I more or less just let the enemy attack me.

Stig

[K_Freddie]

AI Combat Reports - 2560AD

1) Me = (ace)Spit-IX vs AI (ace)Spit-IX (Crimea Map - 1000m)

The usual being bounced, turn into attack.
Spit does extraordinary rudder/elevator rolls to get a burst on me - I avoid it with an inward snap roll. The Spit stays with with me and we match each other turn for turn without either getting a bead on the other. The AI then flies into the beach during a turn...???.
I was nowhere near blacking out and the AI was turning at the same speed/rate - Huh!
This was repeated 3x - all results similar

2)Me = (ace)FW190A9 vs AI (ace)FW190A9 (Crimea Map - 1000m)
The usual being bounced, turn into attack.
AI FW doesn't even match the spit with first attacking move. With superior roll rate and better control it makes no attempt to do what the Spit did. After the first pass it makes no attempt to follow me, stay close like the spit.
In the same plane I was onto the AI FW in less than 270 degrees and I just followed it (glued myself to it's rear end) without shooting until it also flew itself into the ground for no apparent reason. It did purely defensive moves with no matching aggressiveness like the spit.
This was repeated 3x - all results similar

The disparity is as wide as a canyon here.. or maybe the limitation is the human imagination (most likely suspect)
I'm really tired of the AI flying into the ground, sea or any lump of dirt that is 'in the sky' !!

[K_Freddie]

I have a proposal for TD with regard to the AI.

Why don't you guys ask everyone whose had medium to extensive experience in any particular a/c to write a report(or multiple reports) on their tactics used in certain scenarios, online or offline.

Filter the basic/important aspects and incorporate these ideas into the AI programming.

Whaddya say.. hey!!


Edt: Taking this further.. how about seperate aircraft enthusiasts working on their fav aircraft - Pits, FMs, DMs... etc - team work type thingy.
From there it goes for production testing, then final acceptance into the game.. I'm sure there are a gazillion people ready for many teams of production - TD will be the umbrella controlling body ??

Edt2: I actually like this idea.. it has BIG ideas and results.. imagine a 'world perfect flight sim'.. freak me out somewhat!!

[FC99]

Originally Posted by Stig1207

The friendly AI are pretty much clueless compared to the opposing AI. A wingman would try to clear his lead's tail if he's in a position to do so, without waiting to be ordered to do so, and vice versa, that's the idea of flying as a pair, teamwork, supporting one another.
The enemy AI can do it, and the friendlies should be able to do so.

AI don't know what is your idea about their behavior, you have to tell them what you want. Things you might find logical might not be logical or desired for someone else. I guarantee you that for every stupid thing AI do in game I can find you equivalent stupidity done by humans in WWII.

Originally Posted by K_Freddie

Control surface positions...
I'm not sure how the AI is modelled but in this pic the rudder and elevator positions are at max = instant violent stall.... Not so with the AI.
These positions are held throughout the turn....

And it's not any different in 4.05 for example which is not done by DT. One must ask himself why was that not a problem before for you and now it's a game-breaker.

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

I don't know if IL2 models an inexperienced fighter pilot's loss of Situational Awareness when they're focusing on chasing or firing at a foe, but it would be a cool addition if it isn't already there.

This is not modeled directly but there is a mechanism in the game which results in AI behave in a way you propose.

Originally Posted by K_Freddie

Why don't you guys ask everyone whose had medium to extensive experience in any particular a/c to write a report(or multiple reports) on their tactics used in certain scenarios, online or offline.

Filter the basic/important aspects and incorporate these ideas into the AI programming.

You can't go into details regarding tactics or anything else in 300 planes sim. If this is a "study" sim with only couple of planes than yes, than you can make code for every possible matchup, but not in Il2.

Edt: Taking this further.. how about seperate aircraft enthusiasts working on their fav aircraft - Pits, FMs, DMs... etc - team work type thingy.
From there it goes for production testing, then final acceptance into the game.. I'm sure there are a gazillion people ready for many teams of production - TD will be the umbrella controlling body ??

Nobody stops them to do that but you would be surprised how few such enthusiast actually exist.

Originally Posted by RegRag1977

"Quote:

I also felt that the weight limit for AI aces seemed to be 50%, under this why no maneuverability gains?

Where you heard this, I don't think there is anything like it in code."


Do you mean there is no difference in AI ace agility whatever fuel load you select for AI?

Obviously, I don't understand what you are saying. I thought that you are saying that Aces AI have some artificial weight limit. AFAIK that's not the case, changes in weight should affect them same as humans.

It could be nice to see AI ace start spiraling when it sees player still closing (or firing) after the zoom climb, that instead of being easily shot down while hanging on its prop.

I'm not too happy with AI's B'n'Z and Energy fighting but we can't do all at once. As far as air AI is concerned ratio between Oleg's and DT code in game is something like 60:40 so we have almost doubled the AI code in just a few patches. Considering that we are comparing the team that was payed to work full time on the game with the team that is doing voluntarily job in the free time it is easy to see that DT pays lot more attention to AI than it was the case in the past but we can't do miracles.