4.11 - AI debugging

[K_Freddie]

Originally Posted by IceFire

I think they still have to cheat a bit with regards to some levels of awareness and target acquisition.

It seems so as every time they know exactly where to 'blind' shoot with a combination of all control surfaces, nearly a 100% of the time, which is an impossibility for any human, hence AI

Not only that.. with all the control surface agitation the AI still maintains a superior speed advantage.

I've practised my skills with the ace AI for years, but have never seen anything like this... it's like chalk and cheese. As I said .. a BIG AI fudge has occurred.

One doesn't mind the ability to 'lead shoot', but the ability to place the a/c in any 3D position without 'costs'... is a bit much. This in not coming from a noob.. it's coming from a 4000hr plus on FW190s sim person.

[Luno13]

I'm not sure whether HSFX6 has anything to do with it... but the AI behaved the same before the mod

If you're running a mod, it's not DT's problem. Simple as that.

I've been at the game just as long, if not years longer than yourself.. and know the nuances of the versions.

It doesn't matter how long you've been here (and I have to wonder how you can claim that you've been here longer when you don't know anything about me). You won't know any of the 'nuances' until you've programmed it yourself.

People complained about the AI before TD.. see it now

You really think their AI is worse? And I'm supposed to believe that you know the 'nuances'? Psh.

[CWMV]

That would be my only gripe about the AI, make them adhere to the same AI as the player.
Other than that its much much better than before.

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by K_Freddie

It seems so as every time they know exactly where to 'blind' shoot with a combination of all control surfaces, nearly a 100% of the time, which is an impossibility for any human, hence AI

Not only that.. with all the control surface agitation the AI still maintains a superior speed advantage.

I've practised my skills with the ace AI for years, but have never seen anything like this... it's like chalk and cheese. As I said .. a BIG AI fudge has occurred.

One doesn't mind the ability to 'lead shoot', but the ability to place the a/c in any 3D position without 'costs'... is a bit much. This in not coming from a noob.. it's coming from a 4000hr plus on FW190s sim person.

I'm trying to visualize the problems and I'm not 100% sure what I'm expecting to see. Do you have any tracks recorded that illustrate what's going on? I'd like to see... if you can point out the timecode when weird things are happening that would be even more useful.

[Bearcat]

AI react on your plane attitude not on your control inputs.

That is good to know ...

That's not intended behavior, we will fix it when we find exact cause for this.

That is good to know as well and hopefully will probably address the issues I raised with the friendly AI

Quote:
When fighting the Ace AI in the original IL2 a combination of their behavior and the vastly different flight/weapon models compared to IL246 makes it as interesting a challenge as ever. I would definitely say that IL246 is far better than the original IL2, but that there may be a few things worth looking at in the original IL2 AI etc. that might offer a useful perspective.

I don't know about that .. I think the 1946 AI is much better overall than the original IL2 AI.. in every way..

Quote:
Just like a chess master playing a computer, it would be intriguing to see if within the limits of the IL2 flight models and hard settings, how tough the AI could be made.
It took purpose built monster machine to beat human champion in chess. Chess is great game but you always have same position at the start. Same number and type of pieces. Movement is limited on 8x8 board. Compare that with Il2, 300+ planes, combinations of types, numbers and positions are infinite. And you want AI to make decisions in a fraction of a second. This is hard task for AI.

I think the enemy AI is pretty nice.. especially since 4.10 .. it is the behavior of the friendly AI that gets me.. Heck if my AI wingman acted like the wing men of the bandit I am chasing I would be happier.. and maybe I am wrong but it seems to me that they do not both act the same. Even when I tell them what to do more often than I'd like there will be 3 or four friendlies flying around me while I have 3-5 bandits taking turns ripping me a new one at the same time..

That is correct.

Another good to know..

What to do now, some says AI shoots too good and some says it is too bad? No way to please everybody.

I dunno about that one either.. I don't do too many headons with ace AI .. I usually loose no matter what they are flying.

Originally Posted by Luno13 View Post
The AI in a historical combat flight sim should represent the skill level of a human who has limited experience, training, and has emotions such as fear.

Humans online have way more experience in gunnery and maneuvering than any of the top WWII aces and and make maneuvers without feeling strain on their bodies, or with fears of death.
I'm afraid that we must make compromise here and make AI bit better than historical. IMO using Rookies and Average AI for the most part and some Veterans and Aces in historical missions provides good approximation of WWII skill level.

I agree 100%. This is exactly my take and what I do when I made missions ..

[Luno13]

Thanks for the Q & A, FC!

[Stig1207]

Quote:
I think the enemy AI is pretty nice.. especially since 4.10 .. it is the behavior of the friendly AI that gets me.. Heck if my AI wingman acted like the wing men of the bandit I am chasing I would be happier.. and maybe I am wrong but it seems to me that they do not both act the same. Even when I tell them what to do more often than I'd like there will be 3 or four friendlies flying around me while I have 3-5 bandits taking turns ripping me a new one at the same time..


Hitting the nail on the head. The friendly AI are pretty much clueless compared to the opposing AI. A wingman would try to clear his lead's tail if he's in a position to do so, without waiting to be ordered to do so, and vice versa, that's the idea of flying as a pair, teamwork, supporting one another.
The enemy AI can do it, and the friendlies should be able to do so.

Stig

[SPAD-1949]

Originally Posted by Stig1207

Quote:
I think the enemy AI is pretty nice.. especially since 4.10 .. it is the behavior of the friendly AI that gets me.. Heck if my AI wingman acted like the wing men of the bandit I am chasing I would be happier.. and maybe I am wrong but it seems to me that they do not both act the same. Even when I tell them what to do more often than I'd like there will be 3 or four friendlies flying around me while I have 3-5 bandits taking turns ripping me a new one at the same time..


Hitting the nail on the head. The friendly AI are pretty much clueless compared to the opposing AI. A wingman would try to clear his lead's tail if he's in a position to do so, without waiting to be ordered to do so, and vice versa, that's the idea of flying as a pair, teamwork, supporting one another.
The enemy AI can do it, and the friendlies should be able to do so.

Stig

Well I saw a big difference in AI behaviour between 4.10 and 4.11
With 4.10 enemy AI was extremely agressive and there was little chance surviving a 4 vs 4 fighter encounter where all were set ace. Usually you were killed within seconds from a headon sniper shot, less then 5 rounds necessary. Also friendly AI were agressive and you stood little chance staying in formation when heading towards the enemy.

With 4.11 evrything seems a little to sissy. Your flight leader avoids the encounter, enemy AI lost lots of agressivity.
I added a simple fighter mission where it was immediately to be seen. Try it in 4.09, 4.10 and 4.11 and you will easyly recognize the differences.

[K_Freddie]

Control surface positions...
I'm not sure how the AI is modelled but in this pic the rudder and elevator positions are at max = instant violent stall.... Not so with the AI.
These positions are held throughout the turn.... Also
Doing a lot of crimea quickies... The Spit AI can do the most amazing turns and not black out, then while doing a mild turn just flies into the ground.
I'm beginning to enjoy pre-modded IL2 more

[Stig1207]

Originally Posted by SPAD-1949

Well I saw a big difference in AI behaviour between 4.10 and 4.11
With 4.10 enemy AI was extremely agressive and there was little chance surviving a 4 vs 4 fighter encounter where all were set ace. Usually you were killed within seconds from a headon sniper shot, less then 5 rounds necessary. Also friendly AI were agressive and you stood little chance staying in formation when heading towards the enemy.

With 4.11 evrything seems a little to sissy. Your flight leader avoids the encounter, enemy AI lost lots of agressivity.
I added a simple fighter mission where it was immediately to be seen. Try it in 4.09, 4.10 and 4.11 and you will easyly recognize the differences.

I must stress that I haven't had time to try your mission probably, but I have flown it a few times in 4.11.and 4.10 on autopilot, and yes, I can see the difference. I think though that this stems from the overhaul the AI recieved in 4.11, where the AI won't always just wade into any fight, but sometimes may seek a more advantageous position before engaging or even running away.
So in general the AI in 4.11 are probably less aggressive in 4.11 than in earlier versions, but on the otherhand that probably makes them more 'human'. I consider the enemy AI much improved and more of a challenge in 4.11, but in some respects the friendly AI arn't in the same league.

I have attached a ntrk to illustrate what I (and Bearcat) have mentioned, where the friendlies don't react to bandits flying along side them and attacking the flight leader (yours truly), until I request assitance. In the track i haven't I haven't given the order to 'attack fighters' so the friendlies just follow me around in formation and then I more or less just let the enemy attack me.

Stig