4.11 - AI debugging

[Jumoschwanz]

I like playing with the AI a lot and just have a few observations about it.

The first thing I would like to bring up is the way the AI seems to be "wired" to your brain when you fly against it. By this I mean when you are on an AI pilot's 6, even though he should be having a little trouble seeing what you are doing back there, they seem to move in a way that is directly dependent on your control inputs, almost as if you are controlling the AI aircraft with your control inputs.
I can make almost all AI opponents do what I want to do and even fly in front of my guns with various control inputs. This lets me shoot down Ace AI that are in much faster aircraft by "commanding" them to climb and turn and scissor with my slower aircraft.

I thought that the ace AI would be more realistic if a slight delay was introduced between the time you moved your controls and the AI reacted to it. Not much but enough to make it seem like they had to look at what you are doing and move their own controls during a fight.

Of course I do not want to make it easy to shoot down Ace AI, I just want them to appear more human. I hope that the Ace AI are not dumbed down because noobs cry about not being able to shoot them down or escape them. I believe they should offer the experience of jousting with an actual human IL2 online Ace with many years experience, where the average player would rarely be able to shoot them down or escape their attacks. The best human opponents should be able to shoot them down maybe one out of two times, that is what would keep the sim interesting for old-timers and make a great goal and practice tool for neophytes and those who enjoy flying offline as much as on. If someone wants target practice or satisfaction let them set the AI to a lower setting than ACE.

Lastly I notice that the Ace AI should be a lot more effective than they are but for some reason when they are on the tail of an opponent or target they take extra time to do some redundant and useless barrel rolls etc.. This may help them foil certain tailgunners, but when they are on the tail of an enemy fighter aircraft all it does is wastes their energy and a lot of opportunities to make shots.

I still have the original IL2 installed, and the old FB also, which are both fun to play with now and then for various reasons. When fighting the Ace AI in the original IL2 a combination of their behavior and the vastly different flight/weapon models compared to IL246 makes it as interesting a challenge as ever. I would definitely say that IL246 is far better than the original IL2, but that there may be a few things worth looking at in the original IL2 AI etc. that might offer a useful perspective.

Thank you for all the wonderful work that is done on IL246.

[jameson]

109g6as v Lagg7 1944 ace is certainly interesting. When converging level but with him still 5km distant, if I engage WEP and start to climb he commits to another routine entirely which concedes advantage and makes him an easy kill, but if I don't climb or use WEP he goes for the head on shot. I haven't noticed him messing around much behind me though, just insanely attacking, even stalling into the deck attempting to turn much too quickly. No kill for that though ingame, more's the pity. If he's zoom climbing and you're below and in his six he will just keep climbing straight up with the usual outcome (him dead!) but will attempt 180 roll and dive as I come into gun range. All in all much more fun though.

[RegRag1977]

Originally Posted by jameson

109g6as v Lagg7 1944 ace is certainly interesting. When converging level but with him still 5km distant, if I engage WEP and start to climb he commits to another routine entirely which concedes advantage and makes him an easy kill, but if I don't climb or use WEP he goes for the head on shot. I haven't noticed him messing around much behind me though, just insanely attacking, even stalling into the deck attempting to turn much too quickly. No kill for that though ingame, more's the pity. If he's zoom climbing and you're below and in his six he will just keep climbing straight up with the usual outcome (him dead!) but will attempt 180 roll and dive as I come into gun range. All in all much more fun though.

109 vs La7 ace and 1vs1 in general improved greatly due to brilliant AI programming. But still there's some suggestions i would like to make.

As you said it seems that AI has trouble seeing player's dot after a 5km distance, AI ace often seeming to see player at the very last moment which makes it lose a great part of its maneuvrablity advantage (vs Luftwaffe types, for instance). I think this is why AI doesn't follow the climb...just a theory though...
Another thing, when head on La7 rarely fires at player, and when does very often misses, while player wont miss and will score (fatal wing or engine) hits: to me AI ace aiming should be far more accurate especially head on.
Another interesting thing i noticed is the way AI generally avoid head on by using rolls to move out of plan: could the roll be faster, as is now it often allows player to score hits.

Ai ace seems unable to aim when player (coming head on) is under its position and very close to the ground, when in this position it will never have a shot letting the engagement prolong itself when it should try to make it the shortest possible.

Close to the ground, well unfortunately AI ace have the greatest problems to fight efficiently, and if you slow down there to stall speed in scissors (even La7ace 50%fuel vs Bf109G14 80%), its dead very often. AI ace doesn't seems to know how to slow down quickly and to maintain low speed enough to have firing position before player: nose-to-nose generally ends up with AI defeated. Ai overshoots way too easily, could they perhaps zoom climb or barrel roll instead of coming back in scissors, exposing themselves to canon fire?

When AI sits in player's six following him in a diving spiral, AI seems to hesitate and disengages when a properly flown La7 would easily follow the maneuver (lag pursuit) and use its superior rate of turn and acceleration to keep position right on player's six: now he's leaving too soon, giving lots of degrees for free (sometimes even its 6 low), as if it lost its orientation, this prolonging the fight.

AI La7 ace (but so far i noticed this with all the good turners) will never try to shoot at an (moderately far to far target) extending player to force a break turn and have easy kill. Instead it stays patiently behind waiting for the wingover and the fatal (read above remarks) head on pass.

Also AI ace doesn't like neg G maneuvers, this can cause them to hit the ground apparently without reason (i thought it could be elevator trim related?). Same seems to occur when player snap rolls into a high speed turn close to ground (perhaps due to AI GLocking?).

I also noticed P40 early(flying tigers version) vs Ace Ki43: Ki43 seems to have a sort of unstability in the rolling axis, and i guess this makes him often miss when he's shooting. Other than that the other remarks also apply to this case.

Seems like AI aces don't like the high speed fighting of p51 when fighting them under 1000m with the 'Stang and to my surprise and fun, they often hit the ground for no reason. two times i witnessed Ki43 pilots bailing out without giving a fight!lol

The "slow speed close to the ground" fight is in general fatal to AI ace, i noticed that too while flying bombers against Ace La7. Perhaps this was a feature to allow bomber pilots a chance in offline campaigns. Fighters Aces take alot of hit against human controlled gunners, would be nice to see them actually attack more vulnerable parts from higher speed/angles, just like human ace do.

The zoom climbs and hard turns are new things i find great (i don't know why but reminds me of AI in LockOn when you fight canon only ) Give AI it's aggresivity and aim (head on, extending fighter, better close to ground ability, ability to decelerate quicker) and AI will be as deadly as aces online.

I cannot wait for the improvement, i'm really impressed so far, it's very nice what you guys at TD manage to get out of this game: you have my gratitude for this.

I also felt that the weight limit for AI aces seemed to be 50%, under this why no maneuverability gains?

[Luno13]

Originally Posted by Jumoschwanz

Of course I do not want to make it easy to shoot down Ace AI, I just want them to appear more human. I hope that the Ace AI are not dumbed down because noobs cry about not being able to shoot them down or escape them. I believe they should offer the experience of jousting with an actual human IL2 online Ace with many years experience, where the average player would rarely be able to shoot them down or escape their attacks. The best human opponents should be able to shoot them down maybe one out of two times, that is what would keep the sim interesting for old-timers and make a great goal and practice tool for neophytes and those who enjoy flying offline as much as on. If someone wants target practice or satisfaction let them set the AI to a lower setting than ACE.

I don't agree here. The AI in a historical combat flight sim should represent the skill level of a human who has limited experience, training, and has emotions such as fear.

Humans online have way more experience in gunnery and maneuvering than any of the top WWII aces and and make maneuvers without feeling strain on their bodies, or with fears of death.

If mission planners are going to use Ace AI, it should be at a level consistent with reality.

The primary focus should be immersion. If you want it to, the AI can feel very convincing, but if you look for ways to exploit it, you will never be satisfied with any version of an AI - it's simply not possible to make something like that which runs on a PC. If you want to have a super-challenging fight where you can't just "game the game" with the AI, you can play online with everyone else.

Otherwise, there could be a fifth AI mode called "uber" which acts more like a human sitting at a PC console. Mission builders could use that for arcadey 1 vs 1s, and leave the rest of the AI levels for more plausible scenarios. However, that too will be exploited and deemed too easy within months, I think.

[Jumoschwanz]

Originally Posted by Luno13

Otherwise, there could be a fifth AI mode called "uber" which acts more like a human sitting at a PC console.

That might be fun.

I agree that no pilot in WWII probably had as many hours flying combat as some have flying IL2.

I still fly online and still get shot down as much as I shoot others down, there are a lot of good pilots out there. It would just be fun to not have to go online at certain times and places for that experience. There is not always others flying online on the servers I like to fly on.

Just like a chess master playing a computer, it would be intriguing to see if within the limits of the IL2 flight models and hard settings, how tough the AI could be made. It is fine and dandy now, and I am grateful for all the efforts through the years put into the sim.

I try different things for fun though, like ont to four biplanes vs. four LA7s and other stuff like that and I noticed that the biplanes can win because the AI will not use the superior speed of their aircraft or other advantages it has, they will try to turn with aircraft it is impossible for them to turn with, which any real WWII ace would not do, even those with much fewer hours than good IL2 online players.

Not trying to complain, just thinking out loud.......S!

[Bearcat]

Originally Posted by IceFire

There may have to be some subtlety there. Not sure how the AI works but if I were flying a multi engine medium or heavy bomber I may stick with the plane with a fuel fire on a wing and see if it will go out. If so the plane may be flyable back to base. On a Ki-84 with a wing fire I would bail immediately.
I suspect that was also the case with many crews during WWII having read so many reports of B-17s coming back with incredible damage and sometimes suffering fires on the way back. Not all of those ended at all in a happy way but some of them did make it back...
So ... we may not want the AI to jump at the first sign of fire. Some sort of judgement calculation maybe? No idea how it specifically works.

Exactly .. Maybe in a bomber.. but not fighters.. I have never read an account of a pilot sticking around ina fighter that was on fire.. unless he was wounded and couldn't bail . but then he shouldnh't be able to fight very well either ..

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Why shouldn't a fire in the wing go out if you dive? The whole idea is that the hard dive deprives the fire of oxygen and heat it goes out, just like blowing out a match.
Another factor is that, realistically, the pilot could divert fuel from the damaged tank, or else the fire consumes all the fuel. Once the fuel is gone, no more fire, since duralloy aluminum doesn't burn that well.
Mind you, I'm not letting the AI or the damage modeling off the hook here, but if you were in combat and you had a fire that went out, leaving the plane basically flyable, wouldn't you fight on if circumstances demanded it?
Looking at the video, if you told me that a player was flying the Ki-84 that got shot up, the behavior wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Not in a fighter...

Originally Posted by K_Freddie

Not sure whether this has been mentioned (too lazy to read a 1000 posts )
Offline play:
I notice that on all Ace settings 4vs4, when getting onto any AI opponents tail, it's supporting number will be onto me if I don't hit my target on the first pass.
At the same time I ask my #2 to cover me.. he's nowhere to be seen ??, even after minutes of dodging the covering opponent.
Summary:
Target AI are able to work as a team more than your own AI = No good
This is not random, but every quick mission set.

This....

Originally Posted by jameson

Agree about Ai, sits in your blind spot and does nothing to help not even give a warning. If you're head of four, if you don't order them to do something they just follow you around, even if six enemy ai are shooting at you, lol!

This again.. You would think that SOMEBODY in the AI flight would do some covering.. at least your wingman.. Even if you could program it so that your wingman would immediately attack whoever is shooting at you ... You ask for help .. you get that Roger I got you covered bit. and you look over your shoulder and there 3-4 AI either taking turns on you or flying around without a clue.. Often the warning of a bandid on your six comes after you are already in flames..

1 on 1 te AI is great.. very challenging .. much improved.. but those friendlies..

[RegRag1977]

Originally Posted by Bearcat

Exactly .. Maybe in a bomber.. but not fighters.. I have never read an account of a pilot sticking around ina fighter that was on fire.. unless he was wounded and couldn't bail . but then he shouldnh't be able to fight very well either ..




Not in a fighter...

Yes they did though few of them survived to tell: sometimes they prefered to stay in a burning/hard smoking aircraft rather than to bail out above enemy controlled areas. Especially on eastern front (for obvious reasons), they would try to join friendly territory at all costs.

Famous example: HSU Georgiy Golubev story -Pokryshkin's wingman- reported in Dmitry Loza's "Attack of the Airacobras" (p. 162 to 165). He managed to stay in his burning aircraft controlling the rudder with only one foot, because the fire started to burn his other one. Despite blinding smoke in the cockpit that caused irritation of his eyes he flew his aircraft until he was sure he was behind friendly lines, then only bailed out.

[Bearcat]

Originally Posted by RegRag1977

Yes they did though few of them survived to tell: sometimes they prefered to stay in a burning/hard smoking aircraft rather than to bail out above enemy controlled areas. Especially on eastern front (for obvious reasons), they would try to join friendly territory at all costs.

Famous example: HSU Georgiy Golubev story -Pokryshkin's wingman- reported in Dmitry Loza's "Attack of the Airacobras" (p. 162 to 165). He managed to stay in his burning aircraft controlling the rudder with only one foot, because the fire started to burn his other one. Despite blinding smoke in the cockpit that caused irritation of his eyes he flew his aircraft until he was sure he was behind friendly lines, then only bailed out.

Yes but what he didn't do was go on the attack.. either of the guy who shot him or some other guy.. he tried to leave the theater as quickly as possible ......

[RegRag1977]

Originally Posted by Bearcat

Yes but what he didn't do was go on the attack.. either of the guy who shot him or some other guy.. he tried to leave the theater as quickly as possible ......

True he did not go on the attack in this particular example, though he had to dodge two attacks by a 109 pilot before leaving the theater IIRC.

Anyway, I just posted this in order to give an example. That said, in general, of course, i'm sure a pilot would bail out immediately, and it should be like that in game.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by RegRag1977

Yes they did though few of them survived to tell: sometimes they prefered to stay in a burning/hard smoking aircraft rather than to bail out above enemy controlled areas. Especially on eastern front (for obvious reasons), they would try to join friendly territory at all costs.

I can think of other obvious situations where a fighter pilot would stay with his plane if it was on fire:

1) Too low to bail out. The pilot would ride the plane down and try to crash land/ditch.

2) Close enough to base/smooth ground to possibly make an emergency landing. This option has claimed a lot of real life pilots over the years, since sometimes the choice to try to make an emergency landing rather than immediately bail out is the wrong one.

3) Over water, but close enough to land to possibly bail out or crash land on dry ground. Similar to the situation above, but particularly applicable when flying over shark-infested or extremely cold waters, where falling into the water was almost certain death.

4) "Doomed hero." Pilot is mortally wounded and/or plane is in too bad a condition to get back to base, but the pilot can still complete a vital mission by sticking with the plane until the very end. Very rare, but it did happen. A slightly more common scenario is where the pilot sticks with his plane long enough that it won't crash onto a friendly populated area.

5) Stubbornness. As long as the fire isn't burning him, a pilot might try to deal with smoke or fire rather than bailing out.

Many fighters carried fire extinguishers in the cockpits, and pilots could try to blow smoke out of the cockpit by slightly opening the canopy. The wind rushing over the gap created a partial vacuum which could suck the smoke out. They could also try to extinguish fires by going into long, hard dives, shutting down the engine, or shutting off damaged fuel tanks, which sometimes worked.