British FM killing the fun of the game for allied pilots.

[adonys]

it's funny how you reds are continuously whining about red FMs..

should we start to cry about how we are outclimbed, no matter our energy state, by the red aircrafts? that we can also be outdived, outrolled and outspeeded? that negative Gs are not affecting you as much as it should? that our aircraft seem to be made from paper? that every historical way to escape red on your six is not working?

not to mention the controversial ones.. like many 109 pilots saying that they could actually outturn spits in turning fights.. you are aware that those slats are not in there for nothing, right?!!

[Stirwenn]

nothing to do with whiners or compare Blue vs Red planes. Original post is about historical accuracy. I think that we're all going to be winners if we could stay away from usuals rants and judgements.

[csThor]

First: There is no such thing as "red FM" or "blue FM". There is "the FM" and it needs to be as accurate as possible.

BUT ...

People here, on both sides, should take a step back and look at what they're expecting. I get the distinctive impression that some RAF fans want to see the historical outcome reflected in the FMs, at least subconsciously. [Sarcasm] Hey, we won! So our aircraft must be faster, more maneuverable and better climbing![/Sarcasm]
And I see Luftwaffe fans who want to emulate the deeds of the classic LW aces. [Sarcasm]They shot down XYZ aircraft! The 109 must be faster/more maneuverable/better climbing/whatever![/Sarcasm]

Well, to both sides, you can't! Best you can hope for is a field as accurate as possible, everything else depends on the mission builder and the players. But, unfortunately, the overwhelming majority likes its mindless clusterf*ck.

[JG53Frankyboy]

well, the 1C team has still a not short way to go, the FMs, Planesystems/-controls, AI, GUI, to name some things............

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by adonys

it's funny how you reds are continuously whining about red FMs..

should we start to cry about how we are outclimbed, no matter our energy state, by the red aircrafts? that we can also be outdived, outrolled and outspeeded? that negative Gs are not affecting you as much as it should? that our aircraft seem to be made from paper? that every historical way to escape red on your six is not working?

Hi Adonys, just as you say, you can make complaints about the Bf 109 flight models, there is lots of things that are wrong. But the ones you mention are clearly not among them I am afraid:

- outclimbed, outspeeded and outrolled by the RAF? Probably not Unless you are doing something seriously wrong.

- neg G has been fixed and reading the reports it seems that they're finally based on RL values. It was way too harsh in the previous patches. It is stil affecting the red fighters.

- Bf 109 made of paper - depends, sometimes you can get lucky and make him B/O with short burst, sometimes you hit him with loooong one and he keeps going and outruns /outclimbs you with no problem. I've been shot at by 109s I shot down in flames, but that goes for both sides I guess. I agree the 109 wings are too fragile when being hit by another 109 cannon and Spitfire wing is made too strong on the other hand.

Escaping red on your six? Easy. Keep flying straight and / or start shallow climb. Depending on how fast he is in the first place, obviously.. Or just neg-G and dive, then climb. He won't follow you if he's good and he will get you eventually but that's the way it is in combat when you have good pilot on your six. Spiral climb works prety well, too. It is possible to get out of very disadvantageous situations just by using the 109 abilities (and yours of course) simply due to the performance gap between 109 and RAF fighters. This is historicaly based, so fair enough, except for the gap not being that big. I hope you see what I am trying to say here.

Originally Posted by adonys

not to mention the controversial ones.. like many 109 pilots saying that they could actually outturn spits in turning fights.. you are aware that those slats are not in there for nothing, right?!!

You can do this in game - at certain speeds, or if the Spitfire pilot is not so good and you are. You can outturn a Hurrican no matter how good he is.

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by Robo.

This is historicaly based, so fair enough, except for the gap not being that big. I hope you see what I am trying to say here.

Quoted for emphasis. Historical imbalances should be modeled.

Originally Posted by adonys

should we start to cry about how we are outclimbed, no matter our energy state, by the red aircrafts? that we can also be outdived, outrolled and outspeeded? that negative Gs are not affecting you as much as it should? that our aircraft seem to be made from paper? that every historical way to escape red on your six is not working?

Spitfire 2a was heavily nerfed in recent patches. It's not an I-Win button any more, like it used to be a few patches ago.

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

Quoted for emphasis. Historical imbalances should be modeled.

Definitely, I have no problem with that at all. I actually chose to fly for the RAF because flying inferior planes is more of a challenge.

What I do have problem with is the status of the FMs for they do not reflect the so called reality at all. The perfiormance gap was nowhere close to what we have got in the sim in 1.08. Yes, there are some improvements throughout the current betas with some random changes (especially for the RAF as there are 2 new versions) and the changes are in good direction. But new issues with mixture, overheating and general performance are spoiling the fun for the RAF, hence this thread.

And what I don't understand is that there are people who never actually fly these planes (probably never even tried to use them in proper combat) and all they are gonna tell you is yeah yeah whatever, but the 109 is also 50km/h slower.

[Boandlgramer]

Originally Posted by Robo.

And what I don't understand is that there are people who never actually fly these planes (probably never even tried to use them in proper combat) and all they are gonna tell you is yeah yeah whatever, but the 109 is also 50km/h slower.

I like the famous british humor

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by Robo.

and all they are gonna tell you is yeah yeah whatever, but the 109 is also 50km/h slower.

People get defensive because there's an attitude on this forum that says that Axis pilots are just no-skill newbies who can only win because they have super planes. A lot of us are sick of it.

Who are these people going to fly their beloved spitfires against if all the axis pilots leave, which is seemingly what they want?

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

People get defensive because there's an attitude on this forum that says that Axis pilots are just no-skill newbies who can only win because they have super planes. A lot of us are sick of it.

I haven't noticed this kind of attitude to be honest, all I know is that most of Axis pilots I know are very very good and they know what they're doing because they are usually flying more systematically and disciplined. I have many friends among what you call Axis pilots, I also fly the 109 very often myself and I know what it is capable of in good hands. I have great respect for every experienced virtual pilot and the truth is that there is lots of people like that, simply because many guys are flying sims for God knows how many years and they know how to fly and how to shoot. It is also quite obvious that Blue has got the better aircrafts at the moment and unless you're pushing your luck you won't get touched by the RAF if you do things right...

There are also many new pilots just learning how to fly, which is great as the community is growing and they also learn fast (no matter what they fly), so in the end it's quite difficult to find a 109 that doesn't know what to do on full real servers. Almost everybody is good enough to be a threat, especially so in the 109. So I don't quite understand where you're coming from with this 'no-skills newbies' stuff. Some of the best pilots I know are 109 jockeys, the reason being probably that once you're good you want a good ride, too.