4.11 - AI debugging

[Phabius]

Aviar, I've just made the following test, and maybe it was my mistake... I've placed the Takeoff and Landing points reversed on the airfield (being the T spot the Takeoff point not the Landing point). I would like to know if this is normal behavior then...

I've started FMB and loaded the Bessarabia map. Placed one default He 111 H-6 on the map (ticked player aircraft). Takeoff from the mentioned airfield, near Tatar Bunar (AX6), straight from west to east. Added two more waypoints to the north and then back to Landing, on the same airfield, coming from west to east. At mission start, turned Auto Pilot on and let it go. The He landed ok, went straight to the T spot, then turned and began its long tour across the airfield, spinning over what seems to be all the supposed parking slots. After the tour, the plane stopped just near the T. It did not crash on any airfield object this time (though on the other mission it did, over a default object). When I've reversed the Waypoints, with Takeoff from east to west, landing over the T spot, everything was fine. That was my mistake then.

I've mentioned another behavior like this by mistake on another topic (4.11 General debugging), should have posted it here...

It was a similar issue, but this time in QMB, which has default mission types to choose from!

Tested with a Fw190 A-4 on the Kuban map.
Just choose a flight of one (or even four) Axis Fw 190 A-4 (Ace) and start a QMB Scramble mission in Kuban Map.
The airfield in question is near Anapa.As soon as the mission starts, let the auto pilot take control. After the flight, when the aircraft reaches its landing pattern, it will land far before the strip on the descending part of a hill. When it finally reaches the airfield strip, it will take a tour there and visit most parking spots before finding the right one and stops. While it's doing that, the other planes in the flight will follow the pattern landing down the hill, but only untill the airstrip is reached, when they just disappear because the first plane is still fooling around the airfield. They will never reach their parking spots.

[Treetop64]

Just flew a ground attack mission early in a Russian campaign on the L'viv map. Formation of nine I-153s to attack a train. I'm in the second of three 3-ship flights.

The train was totally destroyed during the initial bomb run. Multiple bomb hits were scored. The engine, coal car, and every car was hit and destroyed. However, the AI planes returned to make strafing runs on the wrecked engine and continued doing so until they were out of ammunition.

[Aviar]

Originally Posted by Treetop64

Just flew a ground attack mission early in a Russian campaign on the L'viv map. Formation of nine I-153s to attack a train. I'm in the second of three 3-ship flights.

The train was totally destroyed during the initial bomb run. Multiple bomb hits were scored. The engine, coal car, and every car was hit and destroyed. However, the AI planes returned to make strafing runs on the wrecked engine and continued doing so until they were out of ammunition.

The AI looks at a train as a single unit/target, even though it has multiple cars hooked up to the locomotive. Even if the train is damaged and has stopped moving, the AI sees it as 'alive'...until every car in the train has been destroyed.

My guess is that you are mistaken. There must have been at least one train car still alive. However, if you can provide a track as proof....

Even better, you could post the campaign mission here and I would be happy to take a look at it.

*I assume you are talking about 4.11.1 unmodded.

Aviar

[Treetop64]

Originally Posted by Aviar

The AI looks at a train as a single unit/target, even though it has multiple cars hooked up to the locomotive. Even if the train is damaged and has stopped moving, the AI sees it as 'alive'...until every car in the train has been destroyed.

My guess is that you are mistaken. There must have been at least one train car still alive. However, if you can provide a track as proof....

Even better, you could post the campaign mission here and I would be happy to take a look at it.

*I assume you are talking about 4.11.1 unmodded.

Aviar

Yep. v4.11.1 Unmodded. No mods were ever installed.

The entire train was wrecked. I even did a low fly-by and paused just to take a close look and make sure. Any surviving cars tend to stick out in an obvious manner, but there were none. The engine, and it's coal car, was definitely wrecked but the AI planes were continuously targeting it after it was knocked out.

I don't have video but I can send the mission file if you're still interested.

[Aviar]

Originally Posted by Treetop64

I don't have video but I can send the mission file if you're still interested.

You can compress the mission into a Zip file and then attach it to your post. I can then download it and check it out.

Aviar

[Treetop64]

Attached.

Had to change the extension from .rar to .zip in order to upload.

[Aviar]

Originally Posted by Treetop64

Just flew a ground attack mission early in a Russian campaign on the L'viv map. Formation of nine I-153s to attack a train. I'm in the second of three 3-ship flights.

The train was totally destroyed during the initial bomb run. Multiple bomb hits were scored. The engine, coal car, and every car was hit and destroyed. However, the AI planes returned to make strafing runs on the wrecked engine and continued doing so until they were out of ammunition.

I tested the mission. As I was afraid, you were mistaken. Not all the train cars were destroyed in the bombing. (See the first screenshot)

As you can see, the locomotive was still intact. Now of course the 153's try and kill the remaining locomotive. (See second screenshot)

However, the problem seems to be that their weak machine guns are not powerful enough to destroy the locomotive, as I observed many direct hits. (I know in a recent patch the train damage models were changed, so this may be the answer....they may be more harder to destroy.)

After the 153's run out of ammo, they return to base. I would say that it's up to the player to make sure that locomotive gets destroyed. (Maybe bring rockets next time.)

Aviar

[Treetop64]

Originally Posted by Aviar

I tested the mission. As I was afraid, you were mistaken. Not all the train cars were destroyed in the bombing. (See the first screenshot)

As you can see, the locomotive was still intact. Now of course the 153's try and kill the remaining locomotive. (See second screenshot)

However, the problem seems to be that their weak machine guns are not powerful enough to destroy the locomotive, as I observed many direct hits. (I know in a recent patch the train damage models were changed, so this may be the answer....they may be more harder to destroy.)

After the 153's run out of ammo, they return to base. I would say that it's up to the player to make sure that locomotive gets destroyed. (Maybe bring rockets next time.)

Aviar

No disrespect intended, Aviar, but you explaining very obvious things here regarding the lack power of their machine guns in destroying the engine. I already know the I-153's machine guns aren't powerful enough to destroy an "active" locomotive, moving or not. I already understand that any car destroyed in the train will render the entire train immobile. I don't have a particular beef with successfully destroying the engine, coal car, gun car (if it has one) and all the other cars of the train. If some of the train survives, so be it. Move on and fly the next mission.

I've been playing IL-2 since it's initial release ten years ago; by now I know the visual differences between a destroyed and active engine, coal car, gun car, and regular car of both a Soviet and German train in the game.

The issue I pointed out in my original post is that the ENTIRE TRAIN, i.e. the locomotive, coal car, and all the other cars, was destroyed during the initial bomb run in the mission that I flew, and yet the AI made repeated strafing runs on the already destroyed locomotive. Again, the locomotive, and all the other cars, were destroyed. Period. Understand that. This isn't a point of pride or anything like that, it's just a simple fact.

Now, if you flew the mission once and the locomotive actually survived in your particular bomb run, fine. The AI returns to strafe the locomotive and will continue to do so until A: it is successfully destroyed, or B: they run out of ammo. In the case of the I-153 M62, the latter is very likely to occur. Once again, that is understood. Now, fly the mission again, and if the whole train is knocked out (as happened when I flew the mission) you will see that the AI returns to attack the destroyed locomotive anyway. Don't tell me "Oh, I'm sorry, but you're mistaken. The locomotive must have survived."

I wished I had saved a screen shot or video of the mission when it occured, but with the way the video replays are misbehaving in recent patches, I'll have to fly the mission again, hope the entire train gets knocked out again on the bomb run, and screen-shoot what the AI does after that.

I didn't think this would be such a big deal, but simply being told "Oh, no. You've just mistaken the locomotive as being destroyed" is insulting, frankly, and specific clarification was required.

[Aviar]

Fair enough. I certainly didn't mean to insult you in any way. My only excuse is that I was getting ready for work, but I wanted to get back to you as soon as possible and so I was a little rushed.

I went back and tested the mission again. This time the entire train was destroyed (see first screenshot)

After that, the 153's did in fact continue strafing the destroyed locomotive. (See 2nd screenshot) So, you were correct in your report. I would suggest filing an official bug report with TD. You can even use my screenshots if you like, as they usually prefer some sort of 'proof'.

Aviar

[JtD]

Thanks for reporting and confirming. I don't think any further "official" reports are necessary, after all, this is the topic dedicated to AI bug reporting.