Inaccurate performance data for BOB fighters in COD comparing to RL data

[robtek]

People trying to disparage someone, are doing it to themself in reality!

[Crumpp]

Here is the results:

referecnes to +12 Lb and/or 100 octance
602 squadron: February 1940 - photo of squadron aircraft in in pre-BoB paint with 100 written on the fuseage + squad operations book entry on 16/2
54 Squadron: May 1940 - combat report from colin gray on 24/5 & AL Deere Combat report 26/5
19 Squadron: May 1950 - combat report from flt Lt Lane 26/5
610 Squadron: July 1940 - photo of 100 fuel bowser refuelling A/C
41 Squadron: June 1940 - combat report Flt Lt Webster 19/6
64 Squadron: August 1940 - combat report from P/O Donahue
72 Squadron: September 1940 - Combat report from P/O Elliot 9/9

References to Boost Cut out/ emergency boost/ "gate"
74 Squadron: May 1940 - combat report from P/O Freeborn 24/5
611 squadron: June 1940 - combat report from P/O Brown 2/6
610 Squadron: June 1940 - combat report order to "gate" 12/6
616 Squadron: August 1940 - combat report from F/O Dundas 15/8
603 SQuadron: August 1940 - combat report from P/O Morton 28/6
152 Squadron: September 1940 - combat report from P/O Hall on 4/9
66 Squadron: September 1940 - combat report from F/O Oxsrping 6/9
234 Squadron: August OR September 1940 - recollections from P/O Doe
92 Squadron: September 1940 - recollections from Goeffrey Wellum

reference to high boost (+10 LB)
602 Squadron: August 1940 - combat report from Flt Lt Boyd 18/6

Good Stuff....

By July it shows ~8 Squadrons and I imagine some of those squadrons are operating Spitfire Mk II's.

August adds another 5 Squadrons and by sometime in September, a full 16 squadrons online as researched by Morgan and Shacklady.

According to the RAF estabilishment by September there were 33 squadrons of Hurricanes and 19 Squadrons of Spitfires.

[NZtyphoon]

Originally Posted by pstyle

.

The list is not exhasutive and simply indicates the first date at which I can find various references. I have grouped these by the type of reference, from explicit mentions of particular boost or octanes (in photos or reports), down to mentions of "gate" or "emergency power/ boost cut out" which are almost as persuasive as direct references to the use of the 100 fuels. I am going to continue researching this to see if I can find further evidence/ data that indicates at a minimum the "in-use-by" date for the various squadrons.

Here is the results:

referecnes to +12 Lb and/or 100 octance
602 squadron: February 1940 - photo of squadron aircraft in in pre-BoB paint with 100 written on the fuseage + squad operations book entry on 16/2
54 Squadron: May 1940 - combat report from colin gray on 24/5 & AL Deere Combat report 26/5
19 Squadron: May 1950 - combat report from flt Lt Lane 26/5
610 Squadron: July 1940 - photo of 100 fuel bowser refuelling A/C
41 Squadron: June 1940 - combat report Flt Lt Webster 19/6
64 Squadron: August 1940 - combat report from P/O Donahue
72 Squadron: September 1940 - Combat report from P/O Elliot 9/9

References to Boost Cut out/ emergency boost/ "gate"
74 Squadron: May 1940 - combat report from P/O Freeborn 24/5
611 squadron: June 1940 - combat report from P/O Brown 2/6
610 Squadron: June 1940 - combat report order to "gate" 12/6
616 Squadron: August 1940 - combat report from F/O Dundas 15/8
603 SQuadron: August 1940 - combat report from P/O Morton 28/6
152 Squadron: September 1940 - combat report from P/O Hall on 4/9
66 Squadron: September 1940 - combat report from F/O Oxsrping 6/9
234 Squadron: August OR September 1940 - recollections from P/O Doe
92 Squadron: September 1940 - recollections from Goeffrey Wellum

reference to high boost (+10 LB)
602 Squadron: August 1940 - combat report from Flt Lt Boyd 18/6

I am not sure how many of the above are spitfire squadrons, but there are 16 Squadrons listed there (610 is listed twice, as I located references in two categories). I understand there are only 19 Spitfire squadrons which have battle honours for the BoB.

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Good Stuff....

By July it shows ~8 Squadrons and I imagine some of those squadrons are operating Spitfire Mk II's.

August adds another 5 Squadrons and by sometime in September, a full 16 squadrons online as researched by Morgan and Shacklady.

According to the RAF estabilishment by September there were 33 squadrons of Hurricanes and 19 Squadrons of Spitfires.

The first unit to use Spitfire IIs was 611 Sqn starting in August, as was established back here

Originally Posted by JtD

There are also records for useage of boost cut out or 12 lbs for the following squadrons, as can be found here:

111, 151 - Feb 1940
1, 3, 17, 56, 73, 79, 85, 87, 229, 245 - May 1940
43 - June 1940
145 - July 1940
249, 303 - September 1940

plus add 11 Hurricane squadrons
17, 56, 73, 79, 87, 85, 151, 229, 245 Sqns May,

145 Sqn, July,

1 Sqn. August,

43 Sqn June

That makes 18 squadrons Feb-July another 6 in August...oops! that equals 24 in August plus another eight September = 32 squadrons. Why that's exactly twice as many squadrons than Morgan and Shacklady tssk tssk tssk.
Breakdown = 15 Spitfire, 17 Hurricane

[Al Schlageter]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Good Stuff....

By July it shows ~8 Squadrons and I imagine some of those squadrons are operating Spitfire Mk II's.

August adds another 5 Squadrons and by sometime in September, a full 16 squadrons online as researched by Morgan and Shacklady.

According to the RAF estabilishment by September there were 33 squadrons of Hurricanes and 19 Squadrons of Spitfires.

I posted this list before:

By Month

No. 32 Squadron pre BoB H
No. 92 (East India) Squadron pre BoB S
No. 111 Squadron pre BoB H
No. 151 Squadron Feb 1940 H
No. 602 (City of Glasgow) Squadron pre BoB S
No. 609 (West Riding) Squadron pre BoB S
No. 611 (West Lancashire) Squadron pre BoB S

No. 1 (Cawnpore) Squadron May 1940 H
No. 3 Squadron May 1940 H
No. 17 Squadron May 1940 H
No. 19 Squadron May 1940 S
No. 54 Squadron May 1940 S
No. 74 Squadron May 1940 S
No. 56 (Punjab) Squadron May 1940 H
No. 73 Squadron May 1940 H
No. 79 (Madras Presidency) Squadron May 1940 H
No. 85 Squadron May 1940 H
No. 87 (United Provinces) Squadron May 1940 H
No. 229 Squadron May 1940 H

No. 43 (China-British) Squadron June 1940 H
No. 41 Squadron June 1940 S
No. 610 (County of Chester) Squadron June 1940 S

No. 145 Squadron July 1940 H

No. 64 Squadron 5 Aug 1940
No. 65 (East India) Squadron 12 Aug 1940 S
No. 234 (Madras Presidency) Squadron 18 Aug 1940 S
No. 603 (City of Edinburgh) Squadron 31 Aug 1940 S
No. 616 (South Yorkshire) Squadron 15 Aug 1940 S

No. 66 Squadron 6 Sept 1940 S
No. 152 (Hyderabad) Squadron 4 Sept 1940 S
No. 249 (Gold Coast) Squadron 6 Sept 1940 H
No. 303 Polish Fighter Squadron 9 Sept 1940 H

It is not complete, so if any one wants to add, please do. It was compiled using pilot reports and squadron logs easily found on the internet.

It is only for Hurricane and Spitfire squadrons. Not listed is other squadrons with Merlin powered a/c.

Here is a list of the squadrons for the BoB:

No. 1 (Cawnpore) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 3 Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 17 Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 19 Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 23 Squadron - Bristol Blenheim
No. 25 Squadron - Bristol Blenheim and Bristol Beaufighter
No. 29 Squadron - Bristol Blenheim and Bristol Beaufighter
No. 32 Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 41 Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 43 (China-British) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 46 (Uganda) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 54 Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 56 (Punjab) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 64 Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 65 (East India) Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 66 Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 72 (Basutoland) Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 73 Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 74 Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 79 (Madras Presidency) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 85 Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 87 (United Provinces) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 92 (East India) Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 111 Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 141 Squadron - Boulton Paul Defiant
No. 145 Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 151 Squadron - Hawker Hurricane and Boulton Paul Defiant
No. 152 (Hyderabad) Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 213 (Ceylon) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 219 (Mysore) Squadron - Bristol Blenheim and Bristol Beaufighter
No. 222 (Natal) Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 229 Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 232 Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 234 (Madras Presidency) Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 235 Squadron - Bristol Blenheim
No. 236 Squadron - Bristol Blenheim
No. 238 Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 242 (Canadian) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 245 (Northern Rhodesia) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 247 (China - British) Squadron - Gloster Gladiator
No. 248 Squadron - Bristol Blenheim
No. 249 (Gold Coast) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 253 (Hyderabad) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 257 (Burma) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 263 (Fellowship of the Bellows) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 264 (Madras Presidency) Squadron - Boulton Paul Defiant
No. 266 (Rhodesia) Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 302 Polish Fighter Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 303 Polish Fighter Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 310 Czechoslovak Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 312 Czechoslovak Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 401 Canadian Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 501 (County of Gloucester) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 504 (City of Nottingham) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 600 (City of London) Squadron - Bristol Blenheim and Bristol Beaufighter
No. 601 (County of London) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 602 (City of Glasgow) Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 603 (City of Edinburgh) Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 604 (County of Middlesex) Squadron - Bristol Blenheim and Bristol Beaufighter
No. 605 (County of Warwick) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 607 (County of Durham) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 609 (West Riding) Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 610 (County of Chester) Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 611 (West Lancashire) Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 615 (County of Surrey) Squadron - Hawker Hurricane
No. 616 (South Yorkshire) Squadron - Supermarine Spitfire
No. 804 Naval Air Squadron - Fairey Fulmar
No. 808 Naval Air Squadron - Fairey Fulmar

[NZtyphoon]

Originally Posted by Al Schlageter

I posted this list before:

By Month

No. 32 Squadron pre BoB H
No. 92 (East India) Squadron pre BoB S
No. 111 Squadron pre BoB H
No. 151 Squadron Feb 1940 H
No. 602 (City of Glasgow) Squadron pre BoB S
No. 609 (West Riding) Squadron pre BoB S
No. 611 (West Lancashire) Squadron pre BoB S

No. 1 (Cawnpore) Squadron May 1940 H
No. 3 Squadron May 1940 H
No. 17 Squadron May 1940 H
No. 19 Squadron May 1940 S
No. 54 Squadron May 1940 S
No. 74 Squadron May 1940 S
No. 56 (Punjab) Squadron May 1940 H
No. 73 Squadron May 1940 H
No. 79 (Madras Presidency) Squadron May 1940 H
No. 85 Squadron May 1940 H
No. 87 (United Provinces) Squadron May 1940 H
No. 229 Squadron May 1940 H

No. 43 (China-British) Squadron June 1940 H
No. 41 Squadron June 1940 S
No. 610 (County of Chester) Squadron June 1940 S

No. 145 Squadron July 1940 H

No. 64 Squadron 5 Aug 1940
No. 65 (East India) Squadron 12 Aug 1940 S
No. 234 (Madras Presidency) Squadron 18 Aug 1940 S
No. 603 (City of Edinburgh) Squadron 31 Aug 1940 S
No. 616 (South Yorkshire) Squadron 15 Aug 1940 S

No. 66 Squadron 6 Sept 1940 S
No. 152 (Hyderabad) Squadron 4 Sept 1940 S
No. 249 (Gold Coast) Squadron 6 Sept 1940 H
No. 303 Polish Fighter Squadron 9 Sept 1940 H

It is not complete, so if any one wants to add, please do. It was compiled using pilot reports and squadron logs easily found on the internet.

It is only for Hurricane and Spitfire squadrons. Not listed is other squadrons with Merlin powered a/c.

That makes 18 squadrons Feb-July another 6 in August...oops! that equals 24 in August plus another eight September = 32 squadrons. Why that's exactly twice as many squadrons than Morgan and Shacklady tssk tssk tssk.
Breakdown = 15 Spitfire, 17 Hurricane

Ah ha! + 1 Defiant Squadron:
264 Sqn Welsh 29May40.pdf

so-er-19 Squadrons Feb-July + 6 August + 8 September = 33 squadrons - 17 more than specified by the May '39 paper and repeated by Morgan and Shacklady and Crumpp.

[Al Schlageter]

Using the above list, these are the bases that required 100 octane fuel:

10 Group

Filton No. 151 Squadron Feb 1940
St Athan - training base

11 Group

Biggin Hill
No. 32 Squadron pre BoB H,
No. 610 (County of Chester) Squadron June 1940

Manston

Marlesham Heath
No. 85 Squadron May 1940 H

Hornchurch
No. 41 Squadron June 1940,
No. 65 (East India) Squadron 12 Aug 1940
No. 74 Squadron May 1940 S

Northholt
No. 43 (China-British) Squadron June 1940

Croydon
No. 111 Squadron pre BoB

Tangmere
No. 1 (Cawnpore) Squadron May 1940 H

Debden
No. 17 Squadron May 1940

North Weald
No. 56 (Punjab) Squadron May 1940,
No. 151 Squadron Feb 1940

No. 79 (Madras Presidency) Squadron May 1940 H

12 Group

Duxford
No. 19 Squadron May 1940

Digby
No. 611 (West Lancashire) Squadron June 1940

Leconfield
No. 616 (South Yorkshire) Squadron 15 Aug 1940,
No. 249 (Gold Coast) Squadron 6 Sept 1940

Church Fenton
No. 73 Squadron May 1940,
No. 87 (United Provinces) Squadron May 1940 H,
No. 616 (South Yorkshire) Squadron 15 Aug 1940

Wittering
No. 229 Squadron May 1940 H

13 Group

Drem
No. 602 (City of Glasgow) Squadron pre BoB

Turnhouse
No. 603 (City of Edinburgh) Squadron 31 Aug 1940

Grangemounth

Acklington
No. 152 (Hyderabad) Squadron 4 Sept 1940,

Catterick
No. 41 Squadron June 1940

The above is not complete so if any feel inclined to do so, update and repost.

[winny]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Good Stuff....

By July it shows ~8 Squadrons and I imagine some of those squadrons are operating Spitfire Mk II's.

August adds another 5 Squadrons and by sometime in September, a full 16 squadrons online as researched by Morgan and Shacklady.

According to the RAF estabilishment by September there were 33 squadrons of Hurricanes and 19 Squadrons of Spitfires.

Morgan and Shacklady's quoting of the pre-war meeting is just that. A quote from a pre war meeting. There are a few things mentioned in that meeting which simply didn't happen. Most obviously the projected consumption figure of 10,000 tons per annum. This must have changed between the meeting and the BoB. Records from the time show that there were 5,000 tons of 100 oct in France as part of the BEF. They only operated Hurricanes in France so why the need for the fuel?

The other obvious 'thing that changed' is the reserve figure of 800,000. If you read the Oil Position meeting notes that I posted you'll notice that this figure was projected for 1943.

Add into that the fact that nobody thought war was going to happen until at least 1941 when the M&S quote was written, and you begin to see how unreliable a document written in March '39 is when trying to use it as proof for something that happened 10 months later. So if the reserve figure and the consumption figure are incorrect, what makes you think that the 16 squadrons is correct?

Happily I've requested the full set of these meeting notes from the National Archive from '38 to '41. That should clear this 16 squadrons thing up. Then you can go back to the pilots notes.

[Crumpp]

Unfortunately the study of history works that way.

Pstyle,

I was refering to fact a military fuel must carry a specification approved by that organization.

It will not become the standard fuel without a full specification. The completion of the specification IS the process of adoption. A provisional specification gets it into the system so it can be tested.

Understand?

[NZtyphoon]

Originally Posted by Crumpp

Pstyle,

I was refering to fact a military fuel must carry a specification approved by that organization.

It will not become the standard fuel without a full specification. The completion of the specification IS the process of adoption. A provisional specification gets it into the system so it can be tested.

Understand?

This is yet more meaningless technobabble, and yet another red herring: fact is 100 Octane was always called 100 Octane in RAF service, right throughout the war; the relevant designation was B.A.M (British Air Ministry) 100, but it was seldom referred to as such.

D.T.D = Directorate of Technical Development, which dealt with developing equipment, aircraft and stores for the RAF. Because 100 Octane fuel was developed outside of the RAF and Air Ministry's direct control as a private venture by oil companies it was never allocated a DTD number.

[Crumpp]

Originally Posted by Glider

To support that you need to give some awnsers to the questions you have avoided for the following reasons

Personally I would like to see any evidence of :-
a) a shortage of fuel
If there was no shortage then there would be no need to reduce the roll out

The first plant to be able to produce 100 Octane fuel cheaply and quantity did not come into operation until right before the war started. There was a shortage of 100/130 grade through most of the war that is discussed in Allied Oil Committee meetings. Specifically it is mentioned in a 1944 meeting on adopting a higher octane grade as a limitation to the production of the more powerful fuel. The refineries cannot meet the current requirements and have never been able to meet them with the exception of a few short months in 1943. Therefore they do not want to devote any refinery capability to production other than the amount required for testing purposes.

That shortage of 100 Octane is why domestically, the United States used 91 Grade CONUS and the RAF used 87 grade for non-operational purposes for most of the war. 100 grade was in short supply and reserved for operations.

b) of 16 squadrons
Which squadrons or if you go down the it was 16 squadrons at any one time

c) of which squadrons or bases
This brings the difficult questions
i) If 100 octane was in short supply when did Drew a small satellite station in Scotland have 100 octane when the priority stations in the South East didn't
ii) At one point in the BOB Duxford had the big wing of five squadrons. Are you really saying that almost a fifth of the RAF supply was in one 12 group station?.

Glider, the document you post from December 1938 very clearly states that all stations will recieve an adequet supply of 100 Octane before the first aircraft is converted. If stations were not getting fuel then that is proof the operational adoption did not occur until all stations had it. Think about it, it just makes sense. You cannot easily switch fuels back and forth. If you add a lower knock limited performance fuel to the tanks, you must use lower operating limits or you will experience detonation which can end a flight very quickly.

This is the kind of thing that undermines the credibility of the posters in this thread.

All one needs to do is look the immaturity exhibited in this thread. Do you really think the evidence has been sifted through with a mature outlook and placed in context? I certainly don't think so at all. More effort has been devoted to finding cartoons and taking opinion polls than looking objectively at the evidence.

If you are going to use logistical documents, then you better have a good understanding of the logistical system and how the accounting process works. One should understand things like "Estabilishment vs Strength", how a fuel becomes specified, how does the testing process work, and what are the constraints.

All one has to do is look at the projections for fuel requirements for a week of operations in the 18 May 1940 document in order to support just four squadrons. You need almost 3000 tons of fuel in the tanks forward of the logistical node to support a week of operations!! That is to burn ~230 tons a week in their fuel tanks.

Compare that with Table II fuel at the airbases for June thru August of 10,000 tons.

d) why this isn't mentioned in any official document, book, history
Simple request, why in the most documented air battle in history has no one picked this important factor up. Support your theory with some supporting documentation, not an off the wall conspiracy theory

What are you talking about? Glider, I use the documents provided in this thread. I just don't read into them and fit them in the context of how things work.

I just read what the document says.......Establishment vs. Strength.....All stations have to receive an adequate supply of 100 Octane before the first unit is converted....

Now, I believe that constraint of all stations receiving 100 Octane as applying to operational adoption and not Phase IV testing. Phase IV testing would continue using the provisional specified fuel. It is impossible to move forward with operational adoption if Phase IV testing is not complete. In Phase IV testing, you would see handfuls of squadrons using the fuel in order to fulfill the requirements of that test phase. You do realize that the fact we only see a few squadrons using the fuel before September very much supports that notion. Occam’s razor, Glider....

e) of the process in delivering the fuel
As there is no mention of a any limitation in the distribution of 100 octane fuel in the Oil Committee papers who distributed it

Sure there is and the language is "units concerned". That tells us there is a limitation. We don't know if it is self-imposed as part of Phase IV testing or a supply issue. It really is irrelevant though in determining if all operational units were using the fuel in July 1940 as the fact remains there was a limitation in place. The Oil Committee was aware of it.

f) when the rest of FC were transfered to 100 octane
As (e) there is no mention of any further roll out of 100 Octane in the Oil Committee papers so when was it done?

When did FC fully convert? That is question we are trying to answer. The evidence seems to suggest sometime after October 1940. I think it is very likely there is another edition of the Operating Notes for the Spitfire Mk I and Hurricane series we don't have at the moment.

It is a fact that in July 1940, all of FC was not using 100 Octane.
The rotation of squadrons does put a restraint on the ability to determine just how many squadrons were using it at one time without a timeline and further research.