how are these 109s turns 180 with out penalties?

[bw_wolverine]

Also just some comments regarding the 'easy to pick up' red fighters.

How does that in any way help our cause? I didn't get the impression that online Cliffs of Dover WWII combat flight sim was a good 'casual' game. Especially when the only server(s) that really offers any hope of finding another player are ones that run full real settings.

Any advantage an easy to pick up plane might have in terms of numbers of pilots capable of flying it is tossed out the window.

So, I understand where mastiff is coming from. He's frustrated. I don't believe that the 109s keep all their energy in turns. It's a good pilot who dropped down and is using his plane correctly. There's nothing really the matter with having the 'better' plane. Just admit it. I just think a lot of 109 pilots won't admit it because they don't want to open up their kill tally to the disclaimer that that suggests. *shrug*. I'll be the first to admit that when I rarely get a IIa, my kills in it are likely 25% to 50% dependant on the machine I'm in, rather than my skill in it.

[Flanker35M]

S!

The only plane that is dangerous to the Bf109E is the Rotol Hurricane. Sissyfire I and Ia you can outdive etc. but that fat winged gremlin keeps up Osprey..if you see the tracers better it is easier to aim. And those 8 guns on RAF planes make mince meat of the 109 very quickly. Especially the MG tracers are very vague in the 109 and cannons too slow to hit anything so I would sure appreciate brighter tracers at times..

But anyways..these debates and discussions about alleged superiority of plane X or Y have been raging for ages and will never stop. Poor horse will never get rest from the eternal beating

[bw_wolverine]

Originally Posted by Flanker35M

S!

The only plane that is dangerous to the Bf109E is the Rotol Hurricane. Sissyfire I and Ia you can outdive etc. but that fat winged gremlin keeps up Osprey..if you see the tracers better it is easier to aim. And those 8 guns on RAF planes make mince meat of the 109 very quickly. Especially the MG tracers are very vague in the 109 and cannons too slow to hit anything so I would sure appreciate brighter tracers at times..

But anyways..these debates and discussions about alleged superiority of plane X or Y have been raging for ages and will never stop. Poor horse will never get rest from the eternal beating

First off, it's Wolverine, not Osprey

Second, if you try to follow a 109 in a dive for any length of time in a Hurricane you will very quickly find you have no control surfaces remaining on your aircraft as they've been torn off.

You're right about these arguments going no where, though. If anything it allows for a little venting before we carry on carrying on.

Here's something to think about though: Flying a Spitfire I/Ia or a Hurricane, your best option for taking on 109s is to meet them from above. Get altitude and descend on them. Okay, now a lot of people don't fly that high, so this isn't too hard to do. But the good 109 pilots fly higher. They fly in around 10k ft or above at LEAST. Okay, so fly higher. 15k and up. Now you're meeting the 109s on better terms.

But now consider how ATAG has their mission set up and how people fly it. Bombers fly in at 50ft off the deck. You can't even see those dots from 15k+ altitude. So you have to fly lower to protect your targets. Like 1,000 to 5,000 ft above the ground lower. This = 109 bait.

So our ONLY option to win those maps is for us to get bombers in the air and get the enemy targets ASAP. Only, we have the tin can Blenheim. I'm sure it has its strengths, but I've flown many escort missions and it's a VERY safe bet that if you go over there with 4 Blenheims, 3 of them will be destroyed by flak and 2 of them before they've even dropped bombs.

Blue pilots and builders keep telling me that the Red flak is just as dangerous as the Blue stuff, but I've since flown a 109 over red airfields to test it and I find that very hard to believe. I'm lucky if I get out alive after buzzing a blue target. One of our tactics is now to flood the target area with fighters to draw the flak so the bombers actually get through. It's frequently suicide and almost always you end up with severe damage.

So if you protect your targets, you get shot down.
If you go up and fight the 109s, you lose the map.
If you get people in Blenheims to attack targets, they rarely make it home and that's no fun (but quite often get the target - salute to you Bomber Boys, doing a thankless job. I'll escort you guys any day and any hour).

THAT'S what makes it frustrating.

One more thing to mention. Escorting bombers? Well, they're going to fly at 50ft off the deck too! So you have to be lower to keep eyes on them and intercept fighters attacking them. All THIS means is that the 109s flying at altitude get to pick. Bomber or fighter? It's an RAF buffet. The only option we have then is to successfully draw the 109s off of the bomber flight into a dog fight so that the bombers can continue on and get out of range. If you manage to shoot the 109 down in the process you either have him out numbered or he makes mistakes.

Here's my suggestion for getting rid of this blasted argument:

Remove bombers as flyable from ATAG.

Seriously. Make the AI bombers attack the ACTUAL targets. Fighters have to intercept and destroy them. AT ALTITUDE. This is the only way we're going to see people regularly having dog fights at 15k+. It also gives some meaning to intecepting those ai bombers instead of just padding your score.

And remove the targets in France. Set up them mission so that german bombers attack all the targets. If all the targets are destroyed, blue wins and the server resets. If targets remain, flash a 'Red survive day 1' message and then launch a second wave. Repeat. Red side tries to last as long as possible. This, to me, is FAR more a Battle of Britain scenario than the current mission. I would design this myself, but the scripting eludes me.

(And I use ATAG as the example since it's really the only show in town currently and it will take something big to change that)

[GF_Mastiff]

@doogles I have flown them and they don't lose any air speed; they fly through like no resistance at all to the air.

So I'm to beleave that we can make those manuavers just like in Red Tails. Such BS!

[Flanker35M]

S!

Suggested reading. Robert L. Shaw : Fighter Combat - Tactics and Maneuvering. I have the book and has nice info on preserving E and hiding E-State from the opponent.

[GF_Mastiff]

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/technolo...191114399.html
Might as well be flying against these.

[robtek]

Originally Posted by GF_Mastiff

@doogles I have flown them and they don't lose any air speed; they fly through like no resistance at all to the air.

So I'm to beleave that we can make those manuavers just like in Red Tails. Such BS!

Whatever you are using, i'd like to have the recipe

The Rotol Hurri and the 109 are so close performance-wise, that i feel very confident in both fighting the other one!

Your perception clearly seems to be biased, imo.

[Codex]

Can I just ask Mastif ... we're you flying against a human pilot or AI?

[Peaveywolf]

Originally Posted by GF_Mastiff

@doogles I have flown them and they don't lose any air speed; they fly through like no resistance at all to the air.

So I'm to beleave that we can make those manuavers just like in Red Tails. Such BS!

I have flown them and they do. Climb to steeply and you lose airspeed, push down too harshly and you red out. Pull up harshly and you go into blackout. The Brit machines are more susceptible is all. The reason we won out in the battle of britain was because we had better pilots with more reason to defend our Isle.

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by GF_Mastiff

@doogles I have flown them and they don't lose any air speed; they fly through like no resistance at all to the air.

So I'm to beleave that we can make those manuavers just like in Red Tails. Such BS!

Post a video. Prove that they don't lose any air speed. Prove that you can fly the red tails maneuver.

Anyone can turn at constant airspeed (it's called a sustained turn, durr.) The question is how many G's one can pull. Until you prove it you're just another exaggerating whiner.