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  #1  
Old 11-28-2011, 10:31 PM
ATAG_Doc ATAG_Doc is offline
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Originally Posted by ACE-OF-ACES View Post
Allways..

But what about the planes for which there is no data?

A little change in weight, horse power, frame (clip wing) etc can have a big effect on these charts!

But lets assume you can agree to some 'calculated' values..

The next big hurtle for the sim pilot is the validation of the values..

This is all for not unless you come up with a standard test..

And even with that you will than find most sim pilots are not up to the tasks that they can get the same results test after test (read repeatable Ala scientific method)

So even if you had all the info/data.. you would still have to contend with the whinny sim pilots that does not know the difference between TAS and IAS but has not problem calling the FM porked
I agree. But still a great opportunity to lay this photo out here.

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Old 11-28-2011, 11:21 PM
IvanK IvanK is offline
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The fan plots that I have collected over the years though few in number are:

Spitfire1A
BF109E3
Spitfire MKIII Clean (Merlin XX)
Spitfire MKIII with Full Flap (RAE study on Flap and its effects on turn performance)
Blenheim MKIV (RAE report "Notes on the dogfight)
Brewster Buffalo (F2A) with Flap and Clean (Exhaustive USN/NACA study on Flap effects on turn performance)

I am sure there are more out there but its just finding them.
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  #3  
Old 11-29-2011, 07:28 PM
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ACE-OF-ACES ACE-OF-ACES is offline
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Originally Posted by IvanK View Post
The fan plots that I have collected over the years though few in number are:

Spitfire1A
BF109E3
Spitfire MKIII Clean (Merlin XX)
Spitfire MKIII with Full Flap (RAE study on Flap and its effects on turn performance)
Blenheim MKIV (RAE report "Notes on the dogfight)
Brewster Buffalo (F2A) with Flap and Clean (Exhaustive USN/NACA study on Flap effects on turn performance)
So six or so.. Out of how many planes in WWII?

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Originally Posted by IvanK View Post
I am sure there are more out there but its just finding them.
Maybe.. but like you I have only found about six or seven over the past 20 years of flight simming.. But even if you could find ONE for each plane, remember, the fan plot shows the results at ONLY ONE ALTITUDE! Typically somewhere between 10 to 15kft

Thus it is safe to say that at some point 'we' will have to trust the math (FM) of it all.. As in a calculated value. Once that is done and agreed upon you have to find those that have what it takes to do the test! As noted, based on my experance of testing and reviewing tests done by others, sim pilots typically fall way short of that mark!
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Theres a reason for instrumenting a plane for test..
That being a pilots's 'perception' of what is going on can be very different from what is 'actually' going on.
Last edited by ACE-OF-ACES; 11-29-2011 at 07:31 PM.
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Old 11-29-2011, 07:52 PM
6S.Manu 6S.Manu is offline
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I think we can overcome this problem with the help of our engineers.

I'm quite sure that today they are using software who can return to us many informations about those planes' attitude.
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A whole generation of pilots learned to treasure the Spitfire for its delightful response to aerobatic manoeuvres and its handiness as a dogfighter. Iit is odd that they had continued to esteem these qualities over those of other fighters in spite of the fact that they were of only secondary importance tactically.Thus it is doubly ironic that the Spitfire’s reputation would habitually be established by reference to archaic, non-tactical criteria.
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Old 11-29-2011, 09:05 PM
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I think we can overcome this problem with the help of our engineers.

I'm quite sure that today they are using software who can return to us many informations about those planes' attitude.
That is true!

Engineers like myself do it all the time in all fields of engineering!
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Theres a reason for instrumenting a plane for test..
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Old 11-29-2011, 09:59 PM
6S.Manu 6S.Manu is offline
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That is true!

Engineers like myself do it all the time in all fields of engineering!
I don't understand if it's sarcasm. I don't know your field but I got 3 friends who happen to be aeronautical engineers, using the right software they have the tools to do it with a good approximation.

I think that a developer of a flight sim should be in contact with experts in this field.
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A whole generation of pilots learned to treasure the Spitfire for its delightful response to aerobatic manoeuvres and its handiness as a dogfighter. Iit is odd that they had continued to esteem these qualities over those of other fighters in spite of the fact that they were of only secondary importance tactically.Thus it is doubly ironic that the Spitfire’s reputation would habitually be established by reference to archaic, non-tactical criteria.
Last edited by 6S.Manu; 11-29-2011 at 10:01 PM.
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  #7  
Old 11-29-2011, 10:08 PM
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ACE-OF-ACES ACE-OF-ACES is offline
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I don't understand if it's sarcasm. I don't know your field but I got 3 friends who happen to be aeronautical engineers, using the right software they have the tools to do it with a good approximation.
No sarcasm (you agree with what I have been saying)

The point is, most of the data needed is 'calculated' using aeronautical engineering techniques

The real world performance data is not used in the FM as much as it is used as a sanity check of the results of the FM

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6S.Manu View Post
I think that a developer of a flight sim should be in contact with experts in this field.
Who says they are not?

Like my sig says.. put another way.. most of the 'issues' with the FM are 'issues' with the users, not the FM
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