Dot Visibility in COD and Other Flight ims.

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by klem

So, without wishing to debase your excellent and genuinely helpful post it seems that we need a 'leveller'. A means of ensuring that everyone can see a distant aircraft at a range that would allow RL-type tactics to be determined even if that means an unrealistic dot or LOD size but no dot beyond that. And I don't mean identifying what it is because the Mk1 eyeball will see a dot before it can be identified and tactics will have to be decided at that stage too.

exactly

but this "leveler method" needs to address 2 separate issues

1) have some visual enhancement method added to the smaller Lod models that makes them stand out more.
- ie, instead of having the focus on them being the right color or shape, the focus should be on [b]"in a real life situation viewing this object from the same distance, how well would it stand out against a similar background ?"[b], and then using a visual enhancement method that works better across a range of objects so we are in the "visibility ballpark" instead of the "mini visibility bubble" problem we have now.
- so if in RL you for ex can detect a moving tank (or a single engine fighter in the process of taking off ) on an open field or road from 1500 m altitude, (which was historically the case for allied ww2 fighter pilots in northern france for ex), then in il2 sim under good visibility conditions you should be able to do the same (presuming you as the pilot are visually scanning that sector for targets). but right now in il2 sim this visibility distance is only 300 meters, a HUGE difference in visibility !

note: one problem with any possible "enhancement" approach is that when the same distant object is now viewed against an open blue sky (like that taxing single engine fighter), it might now be to visible and will possibly stand out to much (because our main visibility problem that needs to be corrected is against terrain background, caused by current PC technology limitations in video displays). there are ways around this, for ex the "enhancement method and color" could be chosen so it has less impact against blue open sky etc... i do not know exactly what the best solution is, but i do know what the problem is and how severe it is

Originally Posted by klem

Arguments about when the dot can be seen by different resolutions would then be meaningless as the range will always be the same and the opportunity for tactical choice will have been resolved. What other reason can there be for worrying about the dot visibility (e-peening apart)?

2) "dot visibility is the 2e and separate problem, that will need a different additional solution (as opposed to LoD model visibility enhancement). the "dot visibility" for the most distant objects that have become very small needs an "enhanced dot visibility" fix. for CoD the LoD models will be more numerous and will therefore already extend further out (according to oleg), so for larger aircraft and other large objects they will transition to dot's later and further away. but with these "il2 dots" we have 2 separate problems that need to be addressed:
a) the current 2 or 4 pixel dots have a BIG difference in visibility on different types of flat panel monitors, with people on cheap TN monitors being able to see them at 1/2 the distance roughly compared to "normal monitors". (hence if somebody in oleg's office has a brief look at this "dot spotting problem" and uses a TN based 6 bit color monitor they might not recognize how severe the problem is for most users (and similarly if they use a CRT monitor this visibility is less of an issue because the quality in video on them is so much better then any current flat panel)
- so issue a) is leveling the playing field and having "dot visibility" equalized by using a dot display method that isnt so different depending on monitor type
b) a "il2 dot" (made of 4,2 or even 1 pixel) might well be the correct size for the distant object, but are currently not as VISIBLE as they would be in real life as discussed earlier in this thread the human eye in real life can track these very small objects rather well (a byproduct of our evolutionary development as hunter gatherers, being able track small moving prey or seeing fruit/berries stand out against a foliage background etc..). so for objects like dots that are within a certain range (eg 2 or 3 km maybe ?) they might need some visibility enhancement that makes them stand out more, even if this means they might have to be a slightly incorrect size or color (fake-real whiners please refrain from commenting and try and grasp the concept being discussed here if you want to participate in a meaningful way)

conclusion: i think the tweaks needed are very minor ones, and need to be quite subtle. i am not arguing for giant blobs flying around the screen so ADD affected people can keep track of them. i am however arguing for a realistic plane/object spotting distance so we can SIMULATE a real ww2 pilots experience, and see what he would have seen, so we can then correctly implement historical tactics, strategies, and flight maneuvers. and i do not know what the best possible solutions are, others here or at oleg's 1c crew will know more about what is viable (but it will take some lateral thinking to come up with effective solutions). i do however know how bad this problem currently is, and it is probably the sim's biggest weakness

[imaca]

Originally Posted by zapatista

exactly

but this "leveler method" needs to address 2 separate issues

1) have some visual enhancement method added to the smaller Lod models that makes them stand out more.
- ie, instead of having the focus on them being the right color or shape, the focus should be on [b]"in a real life situation viewing this object from the same distance, how well would it stand out against a similar background ?"[b], and then using a visual enhancement method that works better across a range of objects so we are in the "visibility ballpark" instead of the "mini visibility bubble" problem we have now.
- so if in RL you for ex can detect a moving tank (or a single engine fighter in the process of taking off ) on an open field or road from 1500 m altitude, (which was historically the case for allied ww2 fighter pilots in northern france for ex), then in il2 sim under good visibility conditions you should be able to do the same (presuming you as the pilot are visually scanning that sector for targets). but right now in il2 sim this visibility distance is only 300 meters, a HUGE difference in visibility !

note: one problem with any possible "enhancement" approach is that when the same distant object is now viewed against an open blue sky (like that taxing single engine fighter), it might now be to visible and will possibly stand out to much (because our main visibility problem that needs to be corrected is against terrain background, caused by current PC technology limitations in video displays). there are ways around this, for ex the "enhancement method and color" could be chosen so it has less impact against blue open sky etc... i do not know exactly what the best solution is, but i do know what the problem is and how severe it is


2) "dot visibility is the 2e and separate problem, that will need a different additional solution (as opposed to LoD model visibility enhancement). the "dot visibility" for the most distant objects that have become very small needs an "enhanced dot visibility" fix. for CoD the LoD models will be more numerous and will therefore already extend further out (according to oleg), so for larger aircraft and other large objects they will transition to dot's later and further away. but with these "il2 dots" we have 2 separate problems that need to be addressed:
a) the current 2 or 4 pixel dots have a BIG difference in visibility on different types of flat panel monitors, with people on cheap TN monitors being able to see them at 1/2 the distance roughly compared to "normal monitors". (hence if somebody in oleg's office has a brief look at this "dot spotting problem" and uses a TN based 6 bit color monitor they might not recognize how severe the problem is for most users (and similarly if they use a CRT monitor this visibility is less of an issue because the quality in video on them is so much better then any current flat panel)
- so issue a) is leveling the playing field and having "dot visibility" equalized by using a dot display method that isnt so different depending on monitor type
b) a "il2 dot" (made of 4,2 or even 1 pixel) might well be the correct size for the distant object, but are currently not as VISIBLE as they would be in real life as discussed earlier in this thread the human eye in real life can track these very small objects rather well (a byproduct of our evolutionary development as hunter gatherers, being able track small moving prey or seeing fruit/berries stand out against a foliage background etc..). so for objects like dots that are within a certain range (eg 2 or 3 km maybe ?) they might need some visibility enhancement that makes them stand out more, even if this means they might have to be a slightly incorrect size or color (fake-real whiners please refrain from commenting and try and grasp the concept being discussed here if you want to participate in a meaningful way)

conclusion: i think the tweaks needed are very minor ones, and need to be quite subtle. i am not arguing for giant blobs flying around the screen so ADD affected people can keep track of them. i am however arguing for a realistic plane/object spotting distance so we can SIMULATE a real ww2 pilots experience, and see what he would have seen, so we can then correctly implement historical tactics, strategies, and flight maneuvers. and i do not know what the best possible solutions are, others here or at oleg's 1c crew will know more about what is viable (but it will take some lateral thinking to come up with effective solutions). i do however know how bad this problem currently is, and it is probably the sim's biggest weakness

All very interesting, and yes, it would be nice to have realistic viewing distances, but the problem isn't the simulator, its the display.
How do you suggest fixing it without improving display technology?
Unless someone can come up with something better than what is already used, this whole discussion is a bit moot.

[Erkki]

With the default dot range of 25km a single-engined plane is a single pixel. You see it against the clear sky, or against ground if you happen to look somewhere near when it moves. I usually spot the single engine planes 12-14km away, but if they move further I can keep track of them insanely far.

I for one use 1680 horizontal resolution. At 90 degrees of FOV, thats only less than 19 pixels a degree. I cant bother to run the sinis through a calculator, but how big is an aircraft with 10m wingspan(a 190) seen dead ahead/behind 25km away?

More than 2 pixels? I know I'm an exception but I have no trouble whatsoever spotting the dots, any of the game resolutions I've played with, on any of the screens. On my own home set-up and others'. And like I said before my eyesight is poor and I have that on paper.

I'm not going to insert the "get stronger glasses" joke. I think most people just havent developed the correct search pattern and methods yet. Practice makes you master. AFAIK not seeing anyone, friends nor foes, was a very common phenomenon in real life too, where only the natural talents would not need some time(and many never learned) to get rid of the "battle blindness".

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by imaca

All very interesting, and yes, it would be nice to have realistic viewing distances, but the problem isn't the simulator, its the display.

its not as simple as that

current pc display technology is completely adequate and capable to provide an on-screen visual representation of a distant fighter aircraft (be this at 500, 1000 or 1500 meters).

are you really going to try and tell me this is the best we can expect from CoD in 2011 ? (see illustrations below)

closing on a yak at 490 meters, where is the little bugger ? if it wasnt for the limited icons being used some of you here might even deny a plane is ahead of us ! not all cases are as obvious as this, but it illustrated one of the issues being discussed.


and again a yak, this time at 700 meters


these are some extreme examples of the problems with "LoD model lack of visibility" (note these specific screenshots were taken in 4.06, but similar problems still exist up to 4.08 and beyond). and the lack of visibility has nothing to do with brand of gfx card, resolution, or having a calibrated monitor, it is simple a problem in the way the il2 sim tries to display what it is programmed for (rather then have it programmed to display objects at realistic viewing distances, and compensate by adding visual clues)

Originally Posted by imaca

How do you suggest fixing it without improving display technology?

the first part of the discussion is to identify how severe the problem is (as this thread is doing so far), and the 2e step will then focus on possible solutions. to just say "yes there is a problem" and then conclude we would never be able to do anything about it is a bit defeatist

[Skoshi Tiger]

Originally Posted by zapatista

its not as simple as that

Being red/green colour blind i find it a bit hard to pickup the icons in this photo (Just to the right of the line extending from the top of the sight?)

I wouldn't mind a different choice of colours for the friendly team!

Cheers!

[meplay]

Originally Posted by zapatista

that webpage you gave does not have much information, but i looked it up on prad.de and it is definitely a TN based monitor (so 6 bit and not 8 bit color). this means it will have been reasonably cheap and will serve most purposes well, like web surfing, gaming, reading office documents etc.. . but for more demanding color fidelity based applications like photo or video editing (for professionals who need great color accuracy etc, or normal users who want colors onscreen as closely represented as real life) these TN based monitors are not as good. on your monitor viewing movie's with black/grey area's willl probably also lead to some visible artifacts (light glittering) in those black area's.

your monitor is perfectly fine for general use, most people wouldnt even know the difference unless they know what to look for. also as one of the articles i referred to points out, there is now great variation i quality in TN monitors and some have significantly improved from 5 yrs ago when they had major problems (but all current TN monitors are obviously still 6 bit color and have similar limitations)

now the good news is that currently in the il2-1946 based sim series you will be able to see distant aircraft dots much better then people with higher end and more expensive monitors. given that they might well have paid 2x (or in some cases 10x) what you did for your monitor, enjoy what you have and use it for what you intended. the next monitor you might buy, look a bit more into the technology and you should be able to get a decent 8 bit monitor for a bit more then you might pay for a 6 bit one

note: when you say "flikker" dont confuse that with the 50 hz screen flicker on old televisions (something removed with 100 hz crt models and most current flatscreen tv's), that had to do with "screen refresh rates" and was very annoying and fatiguing on the eyes. the effect is described for these 6 bit TN flatscreen lcd's is mainly relating to:
1) when viewing large uniformly black/dark-grey area's on screen, like when watching a movie with very dark area's in it (in which case you will see a light "sparkling" pr "glittering" in that area
2) when viewing a small black/dark-grey dot/blob move across the screen with a static background (like forest or other terrain textures in the il2 flightsim), in that case the moving little dot will stand out much more and will probably be visible from 2x the distance then somebody with a normal 8 bit monitor

zapatista sir Thanks for the heads up, you certainly know your stuff