Constructive comments on BOB historical accuracy in Acft skins/markings

[csThor]

For the BoB StG 3 (and only Stab and I./StG 3!) was raised and as a brand new unit it did not use emblems before spring 1941. It was a PITA to research that but all evidence I managed to find points to this.

There're quite a lot of mixups about german emblems around and it was not easy to find the grains of truth here.

[jameson]

Doolittle, this is why profiles are useless:

http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940/602to607.html

This the RAF's, Mod's official site, you'd think they would know! But it's obvious from the original B&W photo that their profile is incorrect.

Good luck with your projects.

[DoolittleRaider]

Originally Posted by csThor

For the BoB StG 3 (and only Stab and I./StG 3!) was raised and as a brand new unit it did not use emblems before spring 1941. It was a PITA to research that but all evidence I managed to find points to this.

There're quite a lot of mixups about german emblems around and it was not easy to find the grains of truth here.

As a matter of historical interest only, (NOT a criticism in any way of SOW:BOB WIP updates) I've learned that St.G76 had used the Griffin emblem (white griffin on green shield) since possibly as early as the Poland campaign. The Stukas of I./St.G 76 became on/about 9 July 1940 the 1st Gruppe of the newly created St.G3, and seem to have retained their griffin emblem which continued to be displayed through the Balkan and maybe 1941 Med campaigns. Likewise, the aircraft/unit also carried forward the Code letters S1 of the de-activated St.G 76 until as late as the deployment to North Africa, whereas the other Gruppen of St.G 3 used the newly created S7 code of St.G 3.
Source is Eagles over Europe Project and also this modeller (Tango 098 )'s reference, among others:
"It was also common for Stuka units to carry their respective emblems on both sides of the forward fuselage just beneath the windscreen and in the case of the I./St.G.76 this was a white Steiermark Griffon on a green shield which the unit is known to have still been using on some of its Stukas in August 1940". http://www.britmodeller.com/forums/l...hp/t52525.html

So it would appear that Stukas of I./St.G3, at least, during Battle of France and early Battle of Britain would have continued to carry the griffin emblem. I assume that later the emblem may have been applied to other St.G3 gruppen.

Of course, by the time St.G 3 was deployed to North Africa, the emblem seems to have been removed from all St.G 3 Stukas.

[csThor]

Unfortunately it's not as clear-cut with these Stuka units. Apparently some of the "established facts" which can be found in various books and websites seem to be less clear. I did ask a number of questions on 12o'clockhigh and among the most disputed units was I./StG 3 (the other was III./StG 77).

There's a lot of nonsense about Luftwaffe units around and if you dig deeper into the matter you'll find less and less clear facts and more and more discrepancies.

[Friendly_flyer]

Unlike Doolittle, I do not mind if it is possible to put markings from a Spitfire squadron on a Hurricane (or a He 111 for that matter). Neither do I object to being able to change squadron code colour, size or placement, nor the possibility of making "fantasy" squadrons. It is a game after all, and made for enjoyment.

I do guess that squadrons come with a sort of default for their markings (also regarding colour, placement etc), at least for the kites they actually flew. I realize that the markings varied even within squadrons and varied with time (the fin-flashes on the Hurricanes being a good example, they went from non in early 1940, through various "large" versions during the summer to be replaced with the regulation 24'' by 27'' square at various points during from late summer to the end of the battle), but some sort of "typical" settings for each squadrons would be nice. When a non-historical plane/squadron is used, the default setting should be the one most common for the plane.

[DoolittleRaider]

Originally Posted by Friendly_flyer

...When a non-historical plane/squadron is used, the default setting should be the one most common for the plane.

I totally agree with regard to default settings! The typical, most commonly seen/documented, version of paint schemes, unit ID code lettering, fin-flashes, placement of serial numbers, should be used...not the anomalous versions seen rarely. I refer, again, to the most commonly seen Aligned Code letters, versus the non-aligned/stepped variation.

[Rodolphe]

...


There are also some stories about Heinz-Georg Migeod in the February 2011 edition of Fly Past.


Spotlight Junkers Ju 87:

• Farewell to England
• Tide of War
• Bouncing Kittyhawks
• Down in the Desert

Bouncing Kittyhawks

...

I was 400 to 500 metres high and, with no engine, had to force-land.
It was all silent with the battle now behind me when my Bordfunker shouted;
Turn right - Fighter behind us !
I put the nose down, dived and landed but the fighter didn't shoot; He was a gentleman.

...

http://www.flypast.com/view_issue.asp?ID=797


...

[DoolittleRaider]

Very interesting! Thanks for the heads up, Rodolphe.

If you've not seen it, here is the interview of Heinz concerning the 11 Nov '42 'Bouncing Kittyhawks' engagement, including a recreation of the events of that day using IL2.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHyWM...layer_embedded

Unfortunately, in spite of my obvious penchant for historical accuracy, we were unable to obtain custom historically accurate skins in time to be included in this video recreation, the expeditious completion of which was a primary consideration back in May 2010. (I say 'we', but the video in this case was actually made in its entirety by 'Biltongbru'...My contribution at the Migeod website was primarily that of providing supporting historical research and gathering customized IL-2 skins.)

[DoolittleRaider]

With regard to St.G76 use of the Griffin emblem, the Director of the EOE project stated this in a recent post at TOCH on the subject:
"I just did a quick run through of examples of I./StG 76 images in our DB (51 of them) and this insignia appears to have been universally used during the WC Blitzkrieg of May-June, and there are a few examples of it with the 1939-style fuselage crosses which presumably date back to 1939, and likely to the Polish Campaign."



It is really a shame that Heinz Migeod passed away two months ago before this discussion/thread arose. First hand accounts and memories surely superceed a stack of supposedly well-researched books,or tertiary research derived from such secondary books/sources.


He was there, he flew with 2./I./St.G76 and 2./I./St.G3; his Flugbuch clearly shows that he was flying his Ju-87 Stuka S1+DK in June and still flying it on 10 July a day after some Luftwaffe orders had been published redesignating his unit as 2./I./St.G3. It is very difficult to believe that he and his Staffel mates would have removed their St.G76 griffon emblems in the midst of an ongoing battle/campaign, then at a later date after their less than one month involvement in the BofB, re-applied those same emblems as the unit re-deployed to the Balkans. Heinz in his interviews made no mention of any such 'temporary/interim' removal.

Heinz Migeod in July 2010 with his shall I say 'cherished' I./St.G76, and I./St.G3 griffon emblem.