Ethics of pilots fighting for the sides in WWII

[ImpalerNL]

Originally Posted by Theshark888

With this type of attitude, why don't you Euro's stop trying to justify the actions of your ancestors by dragging the USA into the conversation all the time. Their is a price for freedom.

Look at the terrible past actions of your own European countries before you try to drag the actions of the USA down to that level. The actions of the US government do not even come close to the atrocities, death, destruction and sheer numbers of killed caused by European countries throughout their history. Unfortunately we were dragged into your dirty business twice in the past century, but at least we were able to stop a third world war. Without the actions of the "terrible" USA you would have all destroyed yourselves (and the world) long ago.

It is because of our money that you are able to sit in relative safety in your homes and even begin to give biased and propaganda opinions about the actions of the USA.

Now that Europe is dragged into Americas dirty business in the middle east, it would be nice if you can stop the chest beating, because the USA isnt in a position to do that.
Welcome into the 21th century.

[Biggs [CV]]

Simply put, its a new world out there. Whatever effects Europe, effects the USA and effects Asia. We all depend on each other. Our economies are much more fragile in the digital age. Chest beating and talking xxxx is simply stupid, if one of us falls we're all in trouble.

[Splitter]

Interesting.

Is this US chest beating or frustration at European pacifism?

It's very clear from the posts that a bunch of people here believe it is never right to fight. Or that one should only fight on their own territory. And that diplomacy works with fanatics.

The world you live in is better than mine. I respect your idealism, please forgive my realism.

I guess this pacifist feeling is left over from fighting two large sale wars in the past century. Neville would be proud. Peace at any cost is noble.

Ok, we get it.

My prediction: When a major terrorist attack occurs in Europe (Spain and England are the most probable targets), the peace protests will break out within 48 hours. Critics will blame the USA for driving the terrorists to their actions.

Oh, we'll sympathize with your plight (been there). Heck, we'll even send aid and help you rebuild. We'll even offer our assistance in going to get the perpetrators or those that enabled them. Britain will be on a war footing, most of the rest of Europe will want to analyze and negotiate. The UN will pass resolutions condemning the terrorists and....nothing.

Splitter

[MrBaato]

Originally Posted by Splitter

My prediction: When a major terrorist attack occurs in Europe (Spain and England are the most probable targets), the peace protests will break out within 48 hours. Critics will blame the USA for driving the terrorists to their actions.

What are you talking about, there have been major terrorist attacks in Spain and England

And who should you be fighting, terrorists are often people living in a western country preparing an attack in their own neighbourhood
You cant stop that bombing afghan caves...

[Splitter]

Originally Posted by MrBaato

What are you talking about, there have been major terrorist attacks in Spain and England

When one incident kills thousands, then we will see what their answer is, I guess, because so far they have done little (though it is important to note that the UK has been the closest ally in the war on terror).

And who should you be fighting, terrorists are often people living in a western country preparing an attack in their own neighbourhood
You cant stop that bombing afghan caves...

Sure you can. That guy plotting in his basement is probably alone, probably unstable, and probably doesn't have access to chemical, biological, or radioactive weapons. Take away his conduit to those resources and the damage he can do is probably limited.

BTW....just how should we go after and find that guy plotting in his basement? Should we do nothing? Is capitulation the answer?

It's easy to criticize, much harder to come up with solutions.

Splitter

[SEE]

But why are people plotting? You can kill individuals, destroy towns anhilate an entire region but defeating an 'idea' is impossible. The state of Israel was borne from 'terrorism' with acts of terrorism plotted and carried out not least against the British Army. 'Terrorism' is a tactical strategy to a political end. Israeli, IRA, Basque separists, French Resistance, Al-Quaeda, Taliban, etc use subversive tacitcs that we brand as 'terrorism' and essentially for the same reasons.
The West should and must do more to give Palestine its freedom and, make no mistake, the Taliban will be offered some political control over Afghanistan. It is already recognised that we cannot defeat them militarily but to continue the hostility and try to force them into the political arena.

[Theshark888]

Originally Posted by SEE

The West should and must do more to give Palestine its freedom

Come on now...the PLO had it's chance when Clinton was in office with the Oslo peace accords. So close...it is really a shame. Remember the West does support Palestine. Also remember that the USA did not create Israel or be the cause of it's creation either

What you have stated sounds a lot like appeasement to me! Did you not learn from the history of Europe in the 1930's?? The USA sure did and that is why we land up being the world's policeman

[Splitter]

Originally Posted by SEE

But why are people plotting? You can kill individuals, destroy towns anhilate an entire region but defeating an 'idea' is impossible. The state of Israel was borne from 'terrorism' with acts of terrorism plotted and carried out not least against the British Army. 'Terrorism' is a tactical strategy to a political end. Israeli, IRA, Basque separists, French Resistance, Al-Quaeda, Taliban, etc use subversive tacitcs that we brand as 'terrorism' and essentially for the same reasons.
The West should and must do more to give Palestine its freedom and, make no mistake, the Taliban will be offered some political control over Afghanistan. It is already recognised that we cannot defeat them militarily but to continue the hostility and try to force them into the political arena.

So you would advocate for capitulation.

I would say it is a fallacy that an "idea" cannot be beaten. The superiority of the Aryan race was an idea that was defeated. The superiority of the Japanese people and their "destiny" to rule Asia was an idea that was defeated. "Death to non believers" is an idea that can be defeated.

Thank you for your views on Israel, they are telling. Thank you also for legitimizing the use of terror tactics as a logical means to an end. Again, that is telling. The moral equivalencies you see are chilling, but I thank you for your honesty.

BTW, the Palestinians will never have a homeland that would satisfy those who hate Israel. The only solution that would satisfy people of that mind would be to wipe out Israel....hmmmm....sounds chillingly familiar. As long as Israel exists (and let's face it, that means as long as the Jews have a homeland, right?) the Palestinians will continue to be used as pawns by those who would seek to destroy Israel and, thus, the Jews.

Or....we all make such a mindset untenable.

Splitter

[moilami]

Originally Posted by Splitter

Sure you can. That guy plotting in his basement is probably alone, probably unstable, and probably doesn't have access to chemical, biological, or radioactive weapons. Take away his conduit to those resources and the damage he can do is probably limited.

BTW....just how should we go after and find that guy plotting in his basement? Should we do nothing? Is capitulation the answer?

It's easy to criticize, much harder to come up with solutions.

Splitter

You have finally realized there is nothing much you can do against modern querilla warfare? It took long. I bet it would had helped if you first asked Germans about French underground movement and RAF, Spanish about ETA, Italians about Mafia, British about IRA, and Israelis about PLO.

You Americans have this problem that you think you can just declare a war and get what you want. However you failed in War against drugs, you failed in Vietnam, and you fail in Afghanistan and Iraq.

No, this is not "hindsight". I have said this 10 years ago. I said also it was anyway clever move by you to begin to cry for help by stating "if you are not with us, you are against us" or whatever bullshit it was. Governments around Europe felt the need to show how "terrorism is not tolerated" in addition to begin to be colonialism wannabees in the name of "international co-operation". However anyone who has read Theory of Games and Economic Behavior by John von Neumann and Oskar Morgenstern knew modern querilla warfare would move to Europe as a result, and therefore EU should not participate on a fight it can't even engage with conventional warfare.

So, you got the oil and we got the xxxx. Things went as planned. Bush also got his second season as your president, weapon companies and military got more money and relevant shareholders become richer. Talk about who won the war. But who lost the war? Common people around Europe, USA, Iraq, and Afghanistan, to name a few. Yeah, that is you.

[Skoshi Tiger]

I personally can’t see this thread leading anywhere positive. It is has gone off topic and degenerated into something nasty. I think it should be locked.

That being said, I work on a daily basis with adolescents, many who come from refugee backgrounds (from all over the world). Some of these children come from families that fled the atrocities inflicted upon the Iraqi people by Saddam Hussein. In the last year or so there have been a couple of these families that have gained the confidence to return to their homeland and rejoin their people.

If anyone is the winner from the Iraqi conflict it is people like these families.

Was the conflict in Iraq worth it? Only time will tell.

Would it have been better for the Coalition to have done nothing? I doubt it. Hussein was a butcher! http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/hussein.html

The worst thing that could possibly happen for Iraq would be for the Coalition to pull out before the Iraqi Government is able to maintain law and order.

With the deadline for the US withdrawal of its troops fast approaching, it will be interesting to see in two years time if the US is going to be condemned for leaving Iraq too early!