Ethics of pilots fighting for the sides in WWII

[ATAG_Dutch]

I'm a hypocrite.
I will not fly a Nazi German plane in a mission offline or online, unless testing a new map or the red team is full, and largely for moral reasons.
On the other hand I will fly japanese planes, because american fighters are hopelessly unmanoeverable and for straight lines only. Like American motorbikes.
I do like to fly american bombers though.

However I think I'm right in thinking that like every German soldier, every German pilot had to swear personal allegiance to Adolf Hitler.
They may have said, 'well yes we did but we had to', but they still flew around with a big swastika on their tails.
I can't bring myself to do that.

Sorry if this sounds like rubbish, but I've had a couple.

PS. Never post when drunk

[WTE_Galway]

Originally Posted by Dutch_851

I'm a hypocrite.

However I think I'm right in thinking that like every German soldier, every German pilot had to swear personal allegiance to Adolf Hitler.

Indeed:

"Ich schwöre bei Gott diesen heiligen Eid, daß ich dem Führer des Deutschen Reiches und Volkes Adolf Hitler, dem Oberbefehlshaber der Wehrmacht, unbedingten Gehorsam leisten und als tapferer Soldat bereit sein will, jederzeit für diesen Eid mein Leben einzusetzen."


"I swear by God this sacred oath that I shall render unconditional obedience to Adolf Hitler, the Führer of the German Reich, supreme commander of the armed forces, and that I shall at all times be prepared, as a brave soldier, to give my life for this oath."


However that is not quite the same as the Waffen SS which required "Aryan ancestry and National-Socialist beliefs ":

http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt07/waffen-ss.html

[Wutz]

Originally Posted by WTE_Galway

Indeed:

"Ich schwöre bei Gott diesen heiligen Eid, daß ich dem Führer des Deutschen Reiches und Volkes Adolf Hitler, dem Oberbefehlshaber der Wehrmacht, unbedingten Gehorsam leisten und als tapferer Soldat bereit sein will, jederzeit für diesen Eid mein Leben einzusetzen."


"I swear by God this sacred oath that I shall render unconditional obedience to Adolf Hitler, the Führer of the German Reich, supreme commander of the armed forces, and that I shall at all times be prepared, as a brave soldier, to give my life for this oath."


However that is not quite the same as the Waffen SS which required "Aryan ancestry and National-Socialist beliefs ":

http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/ttt07/waffen-ss.html

Actually I would normally not write in a thread like this, but certain comments are a little naive, and most likely written because the writers know only part of the picture. Give this also some thought, there where plenty put to the choice concentration camp or front line service. Give that some thought now, with all the hind sight we have. How you would have choosen in that situation and only knowing rumors what is going on in those camps?
Also there where more than enough that didn´t give a hoot about the political big wigs, but where there where they where, because they hoped so to protect their families and homes. That they where misfortunate to be fighting on the side of a cruel system is what we know now, but when you are given only the choice certain death, and high risk of death which would you choose? That there where also exceptions that knew full well what was going on, and believed that was right so is also known, but these are also more the nut jobs. I am just trying to say look at the individuals and don´t throw all in the same pot. As that is how many thought during the fourties, we should know better now.

[WTE_Galway]

Originally Posted by Wutz

Actually I would normally not write in a thread like this, but certain comments are a little naive, and most likely written because the writers know only part of the picture. Give this also some thought, there where plenty put to the choice concentration camp or front line service. Give that some thought now, with all the hind sight we have. How you would have choosen in that situation and only knowing rumors what is going on in those camps?
Also there where more than enough that didn´t give a hoot about the political big wigs, but where there where they where, because they hoped so to protect their families and homes. That they where misfortunate to be fighting on the side of a cruel system is what we know now, but when you are given only the choice certain death, and high risk of death which would you choose? That there where also exceptions that knew full well what was going on, and believed that was right so is also known, but these are also more the nut jobs. I am just trying to say look at the individuals and don´t throw all in the same pot. As that is how many thought during the fourties, we should know better now.

I completely agree.

I was pointing out the Wehrmacht may have had a compulsory oath to Hitler as leader but nothing else. It was just part of the formality of joining or being conscripted. Everyone swore the oath whether they truly believed in Hitler or not.

On the other hand the Waffen SS did require a genuine commitment to National Socialist beliefs.

[Friendly_flyer]

Originally Posted by Dutch_851

every German pilot had to swear personal allegiance to Adolf Hitler.
They may have said, 'well yes we did but we had to', but they still flew around with a big swastika on their tails.
I can't bring myself to do that.

I don't think you are a hypocrite. You use your freedom to elect not to fly under the swastika banner, that right was after all an important part of what the war was about.

Like you, I fly for my own enjoyment. I do not feel any obligation to "honour all veterans on all sides" by flying under their banners. As long as you recognice your feelings for just that, and not mistake them for some absolute moral imperative, you are not a hypocrite in my book.

[MrBaato]

I will fly anything that isnt american

or I use a non-american skin on it...

Perhaps thats because I played Aces High II (which has all american planes flyable and a few foreign ones because they need non-american planes to shoot down xD)
and the holiwood movies

I also dont like their lack of chivalry and i cant stand their skins with the redneck names written on them

[Splitter]

Originally Posted by MrBaato

I also dont like their lack of chivalry and i cant stand their skins with the redneck names written on them

Are you talking about the actual WWII pilots or the people who play Aces High II?

Splitter

[proton45]

Of course the BF109 was a Nazi machine...it would never have been made, if not for the Nazi's.

The Luftwaffe may have been the least political of the military branches...but it still owed its existence to the policy's of the Nazi party.

The individual soldiers of the Luftwaffe may have had different (personal) views on the war and politics...but their machines where the property of the Nazi party (as the pilots where).

NOW on to the other issues...putting everything into context. The statement concerning soldiers that where "just following orders". This argument came from the war crimes trials...many, many officers, soldiers and Generals claimed to have been "just following orders". A major issue with this claim is that their are many people who felt that this statement was used as a convenient excuse to evade accountability. But still, this statement has caused many people to ask themselves the question, "what would I do?" This is a very personal question and I will NOT get into the details of my thought process...

NOW, we as gamers (and historians) enjoy the perspective and distance of an event that happened (some) 60 years ago. We enjoy and study the machines of war...the tactics, the historical accounts and other details of this history changing event. Many of us admire the technology of the war...but I would hope that this admiration for Axis technology was NOT enhanced by an admiration of Nazi policies. Their is also an aspect of cultural individuality that reveals itself in the planning and execution of the machines of war that is separate from the politics (somewhat separate_lol) of the government...Russian weapons are said to be like farm machines, German weapons are said to be "over engineered", and American weapons are mass produced for the everyman, ect...

I hate the Nazis...but I think the BF109 is a very cool fighter plane. A game like "IL2 1946" allows me to enjoy the thrill of flying a deadly (cool looking) killing machine like the BF109 (or FW190) without thinking about the historical politics (and atrocities) of the historical event. Its "just a game"...we as humans are complex muliti-layered organisms, and its up to each of us to decide for ourselves if we are comfortable with the idea of flying (and virtually killing) with a symbol of Nazi oppression.

Make no mistake...the German machines of WW2 where symbols of Nazi oppression...they where built with Nazi money, they where used to advance Nazi policy's, and they killed many people...

I would continue to detail the specifics of my views on this issue, but I think that the more intelligent of you understand my point. I'm needed for Thanksgiving preparations. A luxury I wouldn't be enjoying without "our" machines of war...which I also enjoy flying.

[moilami]

I hate politics. That's why I don't give a xxxx who did what in WW2 when I fly in IL-2. I totally and absolute refuse to care.

But I prefer to fly in Finnish Air Force because I love this poor little country I owe so much, and it is great to defend Helsinki, for example.

However long time ago I made a plan that I will fly for whatever nationality my girl is, and thus honour her by "wearing her colours".

[KnightFandragon]

I fly for no particular Airforce in IL2, but I have yet to fly for the Japanese past like 3 maybe 4 very short test flights. Thier planes are just sad little things. I just find a plane that works for me and go with it, regardless of nation. I mostly fly the Spitfire, Corsair and P47 though. Sometimes roll out the Me410, 190D13 and 262 when I feel the urge to down some bot bombers +D