Friday 2010-11-12 Dev. update and Discussion

[brando]

Originally Posted by Necrobaron

This isn't directed at you specifically Foo'bar and I'll probably regret even making this point since it'll probably make me a "bad guy" but...

That'd be too bad if markings are not editable. In the case of WWII-era German planes specifically, it bugs me when history takes a backseat to censorship and political correctness. As much as I disagree with it, I accept that some countries like to whitewash history by making some symbols illegal. That's their perogative and I understand that Maddox Games doesn't want to open themselves up for litigation (though I think it's ludicrous to think a flight sim would be a lightning rod for Neo-Nazis). However if SoW, or whatever it's called now, is going to ship with missing aircraft markings, I'd at least like to keep the avenue open for 3rd parties to add the correct markings for those that can legally view historical correctness.

I'm certainly no Nazi sympathizer but for all the nitpicking about inconsequential details, it's surprising to me that more people aren't bugged by the lack of historically correct markings on German planes. Like it or not, the swastika was there. To me, leaving it off is tantamount to leaving the fin flashes or roundels off RAF planes, tantamount of course not in idealogy but in historical correctness.

Ok, rant over. Sorry for veering off on a controversial tangent so...flame away!

I don't think that the Germans banned the swastika emblem for reasons of "...... censorship and political correctness." I believe they did it as a reaction to one of the worst things that can happen to a nation state; namely allowing itself to be taken over by a totalitarian dictatorship and ending up being humiliated by the atrocities that were carried out in its name.
I also don't believe it's a whitewash of history. It comes across as a total rejection of the Nazi dogma and a solid declaration of German unwillingness to allow the same mistakes to be made again. It was the right decision and I for one applaud it.

[Necrobaron]

Originally Posted by brando

I don't think that the Germans banned the swastika emblem for reasons of "...... censorship and political correctness." I believe they did it as a reaction to one of the worst things that can happen to a nation state; namely allowing itself to be taken over by a totalitarian dictatorship and ending up being humiliated by the atrocities that were carried out in its name.
I also don't believe it's a whitewash of history. It comes across as a total rejection of the Nazi dogma and a solid declaration of German unwillingness to allow the same mistakes to be made again. It was the right decision and I for one applaud it.

I have a great respect for Germany's people and history and hate the ruin that Hitler led them to and the evil that he committed. However, if they banned the swastika to prevent the same mistakes from being made again, they have bigger problems to worry about. I just can't fathom the stigma and hold the Nazi swastika has on some people, good or bad. I just want people to use a little reason and common sense. Banning the Nazi swastika is not a panacea.

To reiterate, I understand that Oleg's hands are effectively tied in making the swastika a default marking. While I would argue any swastikas depicted in SoW would be done so in a historical context, he doesn't want to test the legal waters and I understand this. I just don't want 3rd party to be limited by the censorship of the few.
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[The Kraken]

Originally Posted by Necrobaron

However, if they banned the swastika to prevent the same mistakes from being made again, they have bigger problems to worry about.

Actually it was the allies, in late 1945. Blame them

I just want people to use a little reason and common sense.

This is primarily a legal and also a political issue. It has nothing to do with reason and common sense. That's why all these discussions here are completely pointless. Each and every argument has already been exchanged 10 years ago with Il2 and before that, with other sims.

And if user-made emblems are possible then it's a non-issue anyway.

[Freycinet]

Dear me, the swastika debate.... yawn.

[Necrobaron]

Originally Posted by The Kraken

Actually it was the allies, in late 1945. Blame them



This is primarily a legal and also a political issue. It has nothing to do with reason and common sense. That's why all these discussions here are completely pointless. Each and every argument has already been exchanged 10 years ago with Il2 and before that, with other sims.

And if user-made emblems are possible then it's a non-issue anyway.

I was just referring what Brando had said. I'd imagine Germany has had many opportunities to repeal such restrictions if they so chose to. I also understand that common sense and reason has nothing to do with this. That is the problem. It's completely idiotic to think that by banning a symbol, the idealogy will go away. If the German people and others allow it, the idealogy will flourish, swastika or not.


You are right that if user made emblems are indeed possible, everything is a moot point.

Originally Posted by Freycinet

Dear me, the swastika debate.... yawn.

Oh, poor Freycinet. I think we've wasted his valuable time. Funny since it seems he has taken it upon himself to be the defacto thread police, making snarky, useless and needlessly critical comments towards others. If he had taken the time to try and read the debate at hand rather than coming up with his usual dribble, he would see that the original point was regarding whether or not 3rd parties could add their own markings, swastikas included. The inability to add custom markings was a new possibility that had not been brought up before.

Anyway, with that said, I think my point has been made and will leave this topic be. Thanks for the civil discussion guys. It didn't snowball as badly as I feared it might.
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[LukeFF]

Originally Posted by Freycinet

Dear me, the swastika debate.... yawn.

+1

[LukeFF]

Oleg, how will player control of the bombsight be handled? Will it be like it is in IL2, where it's the pilot and not the bombardier?

[csThor]

Two comments:

1.) Banning the swastika as it is done in Germy is not just a case of "If I don't see 'em, they don't exist". Suggesting this is insanely short-sighted. In fact banning the swastika is part of a complex of things which all are meant to give the state the means to keep the right-wing idiots under observation and slap them whenever they get too frisky. Unfortunately you can't ban idiocy and plain human stupidy so I'm afraid there'll be always people who were missing when common sense was handed out, people who actually believe that BS the neonazis spread.

Some people said that free speech is a valuable thing for a country. I agree. But I also believe that free speech ends there where other people are being directly threatened with physical harm just because of an ideology. There's a popular saying in Germany, one I very much agree with, which states "Nazism is not an opinion, it's a crime." And that isn't meant WRT the law.

2.) A few Friday updates back Luthier posted, that the russian Duma (parliament) had passed a new law months ago which also bans public display of NS symbols (mainly the swastika). The law itself is as clear as stirred mud and could be read in various ways so 1C decided not to risk anything and omit the swastika from its products. Oleg also stated that even allowing users or 3rd Party folks to add such symbols later might get 1C in trouble (in theory) but he wasn't yet sure what that would mean for the new game series.

[baronWastelan]

I'm with the cranky old lady ^ "+1" for the post count since, like her, I have nothing to contribute

[LukeFF]

Originally Posted by baronWastelan

I'm with the cranky old lady ^ "+1" for the post count since, like her, I have nothing to contribute

Welcome to my Ignore List. You're welcome to stay as long as you want.

Kids these days...