Just curious about the P-51 FM

[Aviar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Er1gO...ture=endscreen

At 10:40 in this clip, a real life combat pilot describes a maneuver he used in WWII. Can anyone perform this exact maneuver with a P-51D in IL-2?

Also, the pilot uses the term 'full bottom rudder' and the narrator uses the term 'rudder down' to describe the same action. I've never heard either term before and not quite sure what they mean. Does anyone know?

Aviar

[JtD]

A more or less, probably less, simple snap stall, isn't it? Down rudder might refer to being 90° banked and use rudder to nose down.

[EJGr.Ost_Caspar]

Uh...I first thought: Who is answering to this old discussion now?

It has been here already quite some time ago. Conclusion was, that the physics in 'Dogfights' series are not well rendered.


EDIT: Ah no, it was a different maneuver, but not less suspicious. I think, here he just stalled and flipped over while turning too narrow, and luckily recovered quite fast, having the right angle for - nose down. I do this in Fw190s occasionally. He just claimes it to be a planed maneuver now - because in 'Won the war- P-51s' you cannot do any thing by mistake.

[EJGr.Ost_Caspar]

Look at 23:00. This is a situation, where in IL-2 every experienced player tells you to do exactly the same as the japanese pilot in the Frank: keeping speed and gain height. In this movie, they call it a 'mistake'. All the Mustang did was some 'spray and pray', like often seen in IL-2 too. Its just luck, as many of the 'kills' in that series. In fact, the Mustang was princibly dead, if there would have been a second Frank behind. And I'd call that 'maneuver' a even bigger mistake itself.


That series is not to be taken as serious display of history pls.

[rakinroll]

I wonder if those pilots whose talk at 10:40 and 39:00 were able to understand the law of conservation of energy in physics.

[majorfailure]

Originally Posted by rakinroll

I wonder if those pilots whose talk at 10:40 and 39:00 were able to understand the law of conservation of energy in physics.

The pilots may not be the problem - they percieved what they tell the way they tell (and that can be pretty inaccurate) - and though snap-stalling your plane would count as a desperate measure in my book, they got away. What this show makes from these pilots testimonies -verbally and visually - that's the real problem. Every 08/15 maneuvre is "daredevil death-defiyng whatnot" and every maneuvre the enemy does is a mistake or worse. And the visual representation is even worse - some of the moves they show would test the limits of a heli pilots skills....and of course anything hit by .50 cal fire insta-explodes in reality.

[Luno13]

I have no idea what "bottom rudder" means, but I imagine it has something to do with his bank, ie, yawing in the direction of the bank. That seems like a snap roll to me. The renders on the show are often inconsistent with what the pilot is saying, compared to the other accounts I've seen.

Caspar makes a good point about the scene at 23:00. If anything, the P-51 pilot made a huge mistake by getting slow enough to stall, exposing him to an attack. Pure luck saved him.

[Black_Sage29]

People are quick to discredit Vets on the history channel..but guess what...they were there, they experienced it..so they have way more credit than most. The History Channel just exaggerates the Vet's account

I fly P-51 all the time, as well as P-47 and get kills all the time without the spray and pray. You need to be confident and smooth in a P-51..most that talk bad about it would get killed fairly quickly in it lol, it's not for rookies


The History Channel is exaggerating an overly-aggressive snap-roll at 10:40. Listening to the Vet, he tried to snap-roll ( like what he did earlier in the video ) and stalled too much ( thats why he fell 2,000feet) and ruddered out safely

and though snap-stalling your plane would count as a desperate measure in my book, they got away. What this show makes from these pilots testimonies -verbally and visually - that's the real problem. Every 08/15 maneuvre is "daredevil death-defiyng whatnot" and every maneuvre the enemy does is a mistake or worse. And the visual representation is even worse - some of the moves they show would test the limits of a heli pilots skills....and of course anything hit by .50 cal fire insta-explodes in reality.

Your right, History Channel exaggerates. Snap-Stalling is not a desperate measure though. It's a smart maneuver especially when the enemy plane is more maneuverable and turning is out of the question.

When your flying fast in a P-51 and you snap-roll, you'll stall a little, but you still have a bit of control of the plane, you just rudder the other way and come out of the stall...now the bandit is out in front or about to overshoot. You have to be gentle with it though cause you could lose control and stall out all the way


Also I've had enemy bandit planes explode from .50 cal fire in game. Rare but possible. You pretty much have to be a marksmen with the .50cals in game. American planes are way different from Soviet/German/and Japanese planes in game..it's harder and thats for sure

[IceFire]

Originally Posted by Black_Sage29

People are quick to discredit Vets on the history channel..but guess what...they were there, they experienced it..so they have way more credit than most. The History Channel just exaggerates the Vet's account

I fly P-51 all the time, as well as P-47 and get kills all the time without the spray and pray. You need to be confident and smooth in a P-51..most that talk bad about it would get killed fairly quickly in it lol, it's not for rookies


The History Channel is exaggerating an overly-aggressive snap-roll at 10:40. Listening to the Vet, he tried to snap-roll ( like what he did earlier in the video ) and stalled too much ( thats why he fell 2,000feet) and ruddered out safely




Your right, History Channel exaggerates. Snap-Stalling is not a desperate measure though. It's a smart maneuver especially when the enemy plane is more maneuverable and turning is out of the question.

When your flying fast in a P-51 and you snap-roll, you'll stall a little, but you still have a bit of control of the plane, you just rudder the other way and come out of the stall...now the bandit is out in front or about to overshoot. You have to be gentle with it though cause you could lose control and stall out all the way


Also I've had enemy bandit planes explode from .50 cal fire in game. Rare but possible. You pretty much have to be a marksmen with the .50cals in game. American planes are way different from Soviet/German/and Japanese planes in game..it's harder and thats for sure

Vets are great resources for just about everything ... but we have to discount and be skeptical in appropriate places. One's recollection of events tends to be skewed without consciously realizing it. Detectives interviewing witnesses of crimes have to be very careful with witness testimony because even when they "were there", peoples memories are notoriously unreliable. Stress and adrenaline and all of that stuff interfere heavily... its amazing what we make up to make the whole situation make sense.

It still doesn't mean that we should discount or discredit witness testimony altogether but it should be taken in context in my opinion.

I'm sure what happened in the end is what happened... no question from me there, but the extent to which it happened is suspect. I, like others have already said, suspect that he snap stalled it and when he recovered was lucky enough to be in a quick firing position. It felt like what History Channel did there but it likely didn't look anywhere near as well coordinated as that!

[MaxGunz]

History Channel is good for exaggerations, mistakes, omissions and the occasional downright lie for gullibility's sake. The shows are best watched and jeered in groups with score pads to compete for error-finding.

Watch it for the mistakes, especially when the commentator speaks.

The veteran pilots were there but how many were trained to put everything into words that a non-pilot can correctly understand? Being a WWII pilot did not automatically confer writing ability nor does having a writer confer the ability to explain it all accurately. Did the pilot know everything that went on? How many used the word confusion to describe times in battle? But apparently some people believe that 'being there' is a magical formula to enable the pilots to make everything clear and concise to anyone. What a joke!

History Channel? More like Revision Channel, Quote-Mine Channel, Lightweight Channel, Rah-Rah Channel, Gullibility Channel, etc.

But they usually have some vintage footage to grab stills from.