Song Drawbacks Make Some Nigh Useless

[Chro]

So, I do like the new song mechanic in this game, and I think it's something that should be available to all classes in the future. That said, there are some implementation issues that I think could be addressed.

I understand the desire for balance, in that for some songs, you get a drawback in addition to your benefit. However, many of these drawbacks are much too serious.

The first thing we need to remember is that with every song comes the same drawback: if you use one song, you are NOT using the other songs. There are all sorts of great benefits that you are giving up by choosing one song over others, and this should be reflected in the 'cost'.

Now, let me go over each song, from most useful (in my opinion) to least useful.

Song of Helheim (Anti-Undead)

This song is perfectly designed, in my opinion. It's situational because it's only useful against undead. However, it is VERY useful against undead. There are no drawbacks, but it is only going to help you in specific battles. In battles with half-undead armies, you have a hard choice to make of whether to use this or not. I think all the songs should follow the design of this song.

Song of Midguard (Morale Bonus)

This song isn't second-best because of a fantastic effect (+1 morale to one troop, with a small chance of +morale to every troop), but because it has no drawbacks, and will be useful in every single battle. In my opinion, the other songs should be designed so that this song is a last resort, due to not being able to specialize via the other ones.

Song of Asgard (Offensive)

At first I found this song to be pretty useless, because I didn't want to take the heavy defense hit. However, the defense penalty only applies to your hero, so it's not as horrendous as it first seems. That said, for those who hate losing troops (pretty much everyone), they might avoid this skill even with its nice offensive benefits.

Song of Jutunheim (Attack/Defense Bonus)

The benefits of this song would make it the best song available in the game, if not for its serious drawback of reducing your initiative. Like Midguard, it works in a wide variety of battles. It's just a matter of whether you want to go first or not. Sadly, you almost always do.

Song of Vanaheim (Physical)

I'm not sure what the intention of this song was. It increases your health, but lowers your resistances. In other words, the whole thing balances out to accomplish very little. The only reason this is ranked so high is because the resistances decrease is multiplicative, and not additive, so it could be useful if your units all have resistances close to zero, and thus only care about the health buff.

Song of Svartalfaheim (+gold)

The main thing that makes this song less than useful is the fact that gold is so prevalent in this game, you'll probably never need the gold bonus. That means the only thing it has going for it is +initiative. But the defense penalty is pretty serious, so unless you're the kind of person who doesn't care about losing troops (or has incredible ranged), this one will probably go unused.

Song of Muspell (fire)

This song had good intentions, but was poorly implemented. It's always going to be both useful and useless at the same time. It gives you fire damage and fire resistance. When are you going to need fire resistance? When you're fighting fire creatures, who will ignore the fire damage. When are you going to want fire damage? Against creatures that will have no chance of using fire, and WILL often use cold (which you are now going to be weak against.)

For this one to be useful, it should deal fire damage but resist cold damage. That way it would be the song of choice against ice creatures (and to a lesser extent, beasts.)

Or it would be, if it didn't have a serious penalty to initiative. The initiative penalty is too heavy handed here. It's the same as Jutenheim, which is pretty much a superior song in every way. Because this song is specialized (much like the anti-undead helheim), I really don't think it needs a drawback at all. But at the very least, the resistance penalty it already has is bad enough.

Song of Niflheim (Cold)

This one has the same problems as the fire song, except it doesn't even give the passive 'set things on fire' benefit. The same problems with Muspell should be fixed with this one, and some sort of passive benefit should be added.

Song of Ljusalfheim (Dark Fairy)

This is probably the most interesting of the songs, but unfortunately it is crippled by a horrible mechanic. Granting random buffs/debuffs around the battlefield would be really cool... except it's capable of giving buffs to your enemies and debuffs to you. Thus, it balances out to no benefit whatsoever. Worst of all, it can mess up your plans randomly (like slowing a unit so it can't reach the enemy). Most people thought this was a bug, but with the recent tooltip change, the developers are claiming 'working as intended'.

The chance of regaining mana is insignificant. A chance of regaining a tiny percentage of mana spent? Even if you blow 30 mana in a round, there's just a tiny chance of getting maybe 3 back. That's piddly. It should either not be a chance (and always give mana back), or it should be a percentage of total mana, not mana spent. This would make it the song of choice if you're low on mana and need to regen some. Assuming the dark fairy portion is fixed.


As I mentioned, I like the song mechanic. I just wish every song was useful and had it's place. As it is, I find myself always reverting back to the same 2-3 songs, no matter what I'm battling. This is a shame, in my opinion. Every song should have its place, and they should always tilt the tide of battle in your favor, instead of making you regret using them.

[zjazd18]

Song of Helheim is the only good one, even a bit op early on. Rest of the song are pretty useless and not even worth the time to set them. If there is no undead i just click Song of Midguard without thinking.

[Highborne]

I dunno, Gold song is amazing for initiative, allowing you to take out a chunk of enemy army before they hit you, so it negates the defense reduction decently. This is of course once you get Rune Mages, etc.

[Chro]

Originally Posted by Highborne

I dunno, Gold song is amazing for initiative, allowing you to take out a chunk of enemy army before they hit you, so it negates the defense reduction decently. This is of course once you get Rune Mages, etc.

Well, the gold song is currently bugged to give +20 initiative instead of +2. I'm describing it as if it followed the tooltip as described.

In fact, I don't think the defense penalty of the gold song is working properly either, so currently the song is much better than it's supposed to be.

[zjazd18]

It works fine for me, giving +4 initiative. I'm using fix from bugfix thread, but still i havent found a battle where i would have to make decision of what song to use.

[camelotcrusade]

For the most part I agree, I really only use song of helheim, and when that isn't necessary, I use the dark fairy, modded. The mod (formerly fix -_-) that makes it do what it said at launch (buffs for you, debuffs for them) makes it fun for me and feel like I'm actually a magical bard. Fortunately we have documentation for that change so if we want to mod it ourselves we can.

Imo additional points in the skill shouldn't make them stronger, but instead reduce the penalties so all of them are usable without regrets. For example maybe at rank 2 song of dark fairy gives you a 50% to work like the mod and it's 100% at rank 3. Attack and defense songs could reduce initiative penalty, and so on.

[Chro]

Originally Posted by camelotcrusade

For the most part I agree, I really only use song of helheim, and when that isn't necessary, I use the dark fairy, modded. The mod (formerly fix -_-) that makes it do what it said at launch (buffs for you, debuffs for them) makes it fun for me and feel like I'm actually a magical bard. Fortunately we have documentation for that change so if we want to mod it ourselves we can.

Imo additional points in the skill shouldn't make them stronger, but instead reduce the penalties so all of them are usable without regrets. For example maybe at rank 2 song of dark fairy gives you a 50% to work like the mod and it's 100% at rank 3. Attack and defense songs could reduce initiative penalty, and so on.

That's a good idea, especially since the 10% and 20% changes don't really amount to much, particularly on the skills that only give a bonus of +2 or even +5.

[camelotcrusade]

Originally Posted by Chro

That's a good idea, especially since the 10% and 20% changes don't really amount to much, particularly on the skills that only give a bonus of +2 or even +5.

Glad you think so. Maybe we can mod this functonality into it later, but it doesn't sound like an easy change.

[Razorflame]

well i agree on most points


1 song is superior to all because of the massive undead fights

then if there is no undead i ussualy go for the gold one(+1 ini)
and some extra cash after the battle(not that it;'s needed) but at least a decent buff

and other than that i use the dark pixie
for buff/debuff

the rest of the song are just obsolete and i never use them


giving u like 8 songs IIRC and only using 3 to me that is poor game design

[Zechnophobe]

I've used some of the others, mainly the fire/cold damage ones, since they let you deal potentially large bonus damage to certain enemies. Or at least I think they do...

The issue I have, is that the same spells that increase your fire damage, also increase your fire resist. But most enemies that DEAL fire damage also RESIST it. So very rarely do I feel like it's going to be awesome.. and then the massive penalty to init kicks in .