Is ammo modeled at all?

Catseye · #1 10-24-2012, 04:12 PM

Speaking from the Red side, I've tried different loadouts - ie., clean with all guns either loaded with AP or Ball or DeWilde for example, and during offline testing found that there doesn't appear to be much difference in the damage caused. Even mixing loadouts shows little difference. Incendiary for example does not create any more flame than AP.

I do notice that different Luftwaffe bombers seem to have a different damage model. I've found that regardless of the type of ammo used on a He-111 the same results ensue - the crew are completely killed and big holes are seen on the airframe. Do-17's show big holes and flame - Ju-88's only show small entry holes and vent - 110's are flying tanks - 109's will vent and flame regardless of the loadout.

So, I'm thinking that the devs have not really modeled the ammo as it should be.

Thoughts?

Cheers

vranac · #2 10-24-2012, 04:33 PM

You are doing something wrong.

***** Damage Caused *****

Plane: Do-17Z-2
---- Inflicted:

Fuel tank tiny leak

Fuel pump damaged

Fuel tank small leak

Ailerons disabled

Plane: Do-17Z-2
---- Inflicted:

Fuel tank tiny leak

Fuel tank small leak

Fuel tank tiny leak

Fuel tank small leak

Fuel pump damaged

Controls generic damage

Ailerons disabled

Elevator disabled

Engine oil cooling/lubrication damage

Plane: Ju-88A-1
---- Inflicted:

Pneumatics hose perforated

Cockpit damage

Fuel tank tiny leak

Wheel brakes failure

Wheel brakes damage

Engine oil cooling/lubrication damage

Compass failure

Fuel tank small leak

Pneumatics container perforated

Under carriage damage

Hydraulics tank perforated

Fuel tank tiny leak

Fuel tank small leak

Fuel tank hose perforated

Pneumatics container perforated

Electrical battery damaged

Machine gun failure

Under carriage damage

Hydraulics hose perforated

Engine water cooling damage

Engine oil cooling/lubrication

damage
Plane: Ju-88A-1
---- Inflicted:

Engine oil cooling/lubrication damage

Engine water cooling damage

Engine water cooling damage

Hydraulics tank perforated

Engine oil cooling/lubrication damage

Engine oil cooling/lubrication damage

Fuel tank tiny leak

Ailerons disabled

Engine oil cooling/lubrication damage

Engine oil cooling/lubrication damage

Fuel tank hose perforated

Engine oil cooling/lubrication damage

Engine damage

Electrical battery damaged

Pneumatics container perforated

Fuel tank tiny leak

Plane: Ju-88A-1
----

Inflicted:

Fuel tank tiny leak

Flaps failure

Engine oil cooling/lubrication damage

Engine oil cooling/lubrication damage

Fuel tank tiny leak

Engine water cooling damage

Engine water cooling damage

Fuel tank tiny leak

Fuel tank hose perforated

Engine oil cooling/lubrication damage

Fuel tank small leak

Fuel tank small leak

Pneumatics hose perforated

Hydraulics tank perforated

Plane: Ju-88A-1
---- Inflicted:

Electrical battery damaged

Fuel tank tiny leak

Pneumatics container perforated

Fuel tank tiny leak

Fuel tank small leak

Fuel tank small leak

Pneumatics hose perforated

Flaps failure

Hydraulics tank perforated

Engine oil cooling/lubrication damage

Engine oil cooling/lubrication damage

Wheel brakes failure

Wheel brakes damage

Engine damage

Engine water cooling damage

Engine damage

Engine water cooling damage

Fuel tank tiny leak

***** Your plane has these damages: *****

Machine gun belt broken

***** Your plane is missing these parts: *****

All of them downed Do-17's PK, 1 Ju-88A shared but didnt have leaks or smokes when I attacked.

***** Damage Caused *****

Plane: Bf-109E-4
----
Inflicted:

Machine gun belt broken

Pneumatics container perforated

Engine water cooling damage

Fuel tank tiny leak

Navigation failure

Machine gun line damaged

Fuel tank tiny leak

Electrical failure

Electrical battery damaged

Engine water cooling damage

Fuel tank small leak

Plane: Bf-109E-4
----
Inflicted:

Fuel tank tiny leak

Engine water cooling damage

Controls generic damage

Engine oil cooling/lubrication damage

Cockpit damage

Plane: Bf-109E-4
----
Inflicted:

Fuel tank tiny leak

Fuel tank small leak

Electrical battery damaged

Engine damage

Plane: Bf-109E-4
----
Inflicted:

Navigation failure

***** Your plane has these damages: *****

Machine gun failure

Machine gun belt broken

Wheel brakes failure

Under carriage damage

Wheel brakes failure

Machine gun failure

***** Your plane is missing these parts: *****

Heavy dogfight with lot of pilots feet wet from Hawkinge, 4th 109 stalled low and went into the water.Two PK's.

Check your convergention settings and practice shooting.

David198502 · #3 10-24-2012, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catseye

Speaking from the Red side, I've tried different loadouts - ie., clean with all guns either loaded with AP or Ball or DeWilde for example, and during offline testing found that there doesn't appear to be much difference in the damage caused. Even mixing loadouts shows little difference. Incendiary for example does not create any more flame than AP.

I do notice that different Luftwaffe bombers seem to have a different damage model. I've found that regardless of the type of ammo used on a He-111 the same results ensue - the crew are completely killed and big holes are seen on the airframe. Do-17's show big holes and flame - Ju-88's only show small entry holes and vent - 110's are flying tanks - 109's will vent and flame regardless of the loadout.

So, I'm thinking that the devs have not really modeled the ammo as it should be.

Thoughts?

Cheers

well, with the beta patches and now the final one, it indeed seem to contain changes in regards of ammunition and their effects....i cant speak about the RAF types of ammo, but on the LW side for example the B-Beobachtung(Observer) rounds lost their historical correct explosive effects...

maybe the devs reduced/deleted the different effects of different rounds to safe performance?
overall it indeed looks more random now than it did before.

Catseye · #4 10-24-2012, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vranac

You are doing something wrong.

Hi Vranac,
You've missed the point of my post completely.

I asked it the ammo is being modeled correctly.

Yes, I see and get all that you have listed.

What the original post is about: Is there any difference between the ammo damage. For example, is there any difference between AP and DeWilde being modeled? Does incendiary actually work? Does AP penetrate deeper? From my tests, I see no difference whether using Ball, AP, DeWilde or a mix. The results are very similar.

Catseye · #5 10-24-2012, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David198502

maybe the devs reduced/deleted the different effects of different rounds to safe performance?
overall it indeed looks more random now than it did before.

Good point David.
My suspicions are that they did not spend a great deal of time programming the ammo except in a general fashion. I'm guessing that modeling the loadouts took a back seat due to all the other issues at hand and that they were concentrating on getting the sim engine perfected to be able to proceed to the sequel.

IMHO, considering what would be required to track each and every bullet fired by ballistics, type, location of hit, type of damage to be modeled and much more - I'm of the opinion that it would take a considerable amount of time to perfect it and also, that in the state of the sim - it might bring it to its knees with stutters.

Hopefully some others will jump in here who have done some tests also.

Cheers

5./JG27.Farber · #6 10-24-2012, 05:19 PM

I'd point at the DM rather than the ammo.

Like you said, why in aircraft of simular construction and materials do you get different results?

Catseye · #7 10-24-2012, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber

I'd point at the DM rather than the ammo.

Like you said, why in aircraft of simular construction and materials do you get different results?

Good point Farber!!
This makes it interesting online for example. Different damage model for different aircraft can certainly create an imbalance in gameplay between flyable models. Many have expressed some observations on just this but cannot put a finger on anything specific.

SlipBall · #8 10-24-2012, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber

I'd point at the DM rather than the ammo.

Like you said, why in aircraft of simular construction and materials do you get different results?

I agree with Farber on this, luthier having told as much...in the old game there was a modder with a ammo fetish, he was gonna in and make it right

. He was astounded to find that the ammo was modeled correctly. I'm sure that is the case here with Clod

vranac · #9 10-24-2012, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Catseye

Hi Vranac,
You've missed the point of my post completely.

I asked it the ammo is being modeled correctly.

Yes, I see and get all that you have listed.

What the original post is about: Is there any difference between the ammo damage. For example, is there any difference between AP and DeWilde being modeled? Does incendiary actually work? Does AP penetrate deeper? From my tests, I see no difference whether using Ball, AP, DeWilde or a mix. The results are very similar.

Yes there are differences,I was acting as target to my friend to improve his shooting for the championship.
When he set belts and convergention right he started killing my poor pilot

Slipstream2012 · #10 10-24-2012, 05:51 PM

I haven't performed any extensive testing, but I recently switched from carrying belts with more AP, to more De Wilde and I've noticed rather than knocking pieces off, or making the aircraft vent oil or coolant, now they burst into flames especially noticeable when targeting bomber engines.