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  #1  
Old 08-23-2011, 02:48 PM
DTsang DTsang is offline
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Default Customizable belting pattern and visually modeled bullets? and gun power values

The new features in 4.11m are great, thanks very much Team Daidalos.
Since the bomb fuses are customizable and more realistic now, is it possible to incorporate customizable ammunition belting pattern in il-2?

Say the belting pattern of MG151/20 is “// APIT - HE - HE - MG – MG” in the game and it is fixed (source: http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthread.php?t=6255). But a customizable belting pattern may enable the player to optimize the weapon lethality against certain targets.

Say “// APIT - MG – MG - MG – MG” pattern probably will damage target aerodynamics more effectively, thus may work better against extremely tough airplanes.

Obviously this is not historical but it could be a lot more fun.

Besides is it possible to visually model every single bullet in the game? It seems that currently only the tracers and tracer smokes are modeled.

Salute

(please refer to post #3 for the gun power value issue)

Last edited by DTsang; 08-23-2011 at 05:02 PM. Reason: added content
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  #2  
Old 08-23-2011, 03:53 PM
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Xilon_x Xilon_x is offline
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THIS is the list of gun armament of ww2 and the compare airplane power of fire and speed when born the famous program R.
sorry for italian lenguagge but this picture are understandable is simple.



LIST OF GUN WW2 GERMANY FRANCE ITALY ENGLAND RUSSIA U.S.A.


customizable army and gun bullets TANK YOU DAIDALOS TEAM.

Last edited by Xilon_x; 08-23-2011 at 04:34 PM.
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  #3  
Old 08-23-2011, 05:00 PM
DTsang DTsang is offline
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Nice charts. Yes gun effectiveness is an issue different from, yet closely related to my question. I did not intend to go deeper into this because of the difference, but I am happy to go on since someone mentioned this, and I will edit the thread title.
This is the best article on this issue I found:
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm
It seems that your effectiveness chart is also taken from the article.


This is a really good article but there seems to be some bias in the “belting pattern” of gun power calculations.

In “TABLE 1: CARTRIDGE DESTRUCTIVENESS” note that the power calculated for hispano mk ii and MG151/20 are both 200. BUT the power of hispano is calculated based on HE shells only, while that of mg151/20 is calculated averaging “API / HET / HE(M)”.

None of these "belting pattern" is historical: “// APIT - HE - HE - MG – MG” for mg151/20 and “// HET - AP - HE - AP” for hispano. Btw, there are debates on actual historical mg151/20 belting pattern, and I am not sure which is correct.

This gun power value is highly depend on belting pattern, or ammo type, as HE shells tends to have higher power, and the far more powerful mine shell further complicates the issue. Simply put, higher HE ratio, more power. Higher mine shells, even more power.

So probably it is a better choice to calculate gun power based on historical belting patterns. And anyway, the calculation in the above mentioned article seem to overestimated power of hispano relative to mg151/20 by a “all HE” vs “API / HET / HE(M)” “belting patterns”.
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  #4  
Old 08-26-2011, 07:18 PM
airgroundmerc airgroundmerc is offline
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So you want the belting of German ammo?

Ok. Here we go.

Translation from part of:

Luftwaffe ammunition instructions for onboard weapons L.Dv. 4000/10,
Part 10, Handbook of the ammunition for aircraft shooting weapons, June 1942

Notes of me in cursiv

(1) 2 cm weapons MG FFM, MG 151/20, MG 151/20 El

MG FF = Flügelfest = wing stable, that means that the weapon can be operated under high g-forces, which are possible in the wings during combat. Of course later models can do that, too, but in the mid 30’s this seemed not too normal, remember the problems the Brits had with cannon during BoB.

FFM or often FF/M: with lighter parts, to be able to fire the thin-jackened M-round.
Bf 109 E-2 MG FF, only motor cannon, not build, Bf 109 E-3 MG FF wings, from E-4 MG FF/M. MG FF motor cannon in one He 112 during Spanish civil war, but only use for airground attacks.


MG 151 El / 151/20 El = electric fusing of the primer for the propellant. More exact timing than the mechanical pin fusing. Used by FW 190 root wings to give firing through propeller a plus safe. When getting this cannons in the wing later, also the El model was used to prevent interchanging of the ammo.

MG 131, MK 103 and MK 108 were electric fused, too. As they had only electric fusing, the El is not in the name. This changes when designating the ammo.

a) Fighters

2 x M with self destruct fuse approx after 1200 m
2 x HEI-T w sd ²
1 x APHE wo sd
or
1 x API phosphorus wo sd ³

Footnotes:

²)The API will be replaced in future with the more effective I, with the beginning of its deliver.
In real it was an I-T! Not exact because this is a footnote.

³)When fighting especial strong armoured aircraft like IL-2, belting is up to 50% AP-ammo, but not against 4-mot bombers. This is mentioned because the Luftwaffe began fighting 4mots first with the same belting as fighting IL-2. M and I-effects had given the best results against the airframes

b) Night fighters

Like a) only with –NT instead of –T.

NT = night tracers, German: Glimmspur = glowtrace. Glowing in the meaning of kinda open fire like a glowing cigarette. Not in the meaning of light and heat like glowing metal. This is glühen, not glimmen, in German.

It should be noted that the ammo for schraege Musik was M only, for 2 and 3 cm

c) Bombers, airgrounds and fighters against ground targets and amphibious operations

10 x HEI-T wo sd
10 x M wo sd
1 x API ph wo sd
1 x APHE wo sd

When wo sd ammo is not in stock, w sd ammo can be used, but is not to be fired above 800m level flight
To prevent self destruction before hitting.

d) Aircraft fighting merchants and light combat vessels ships

1 x HEI-T wo sd
1 x APHE wo sd
1 x API elektron 90% magnesium and 10 % aluminium wo sd

(2) 15 mm weapons MG 151, MG 151 El

a)
4 x HEI-T wo sd
1 x AP-T wo sd

b) Tank hunters and airgrounds only belt when fighting tanks APC/H core of special hardened steel and jacket of alloy for the I-effect when melting during AP
For the MG 151 El this was the only ammo manufactured at this time.

(3) 13 mm weapons MG 131 in the descriptions of the cartridges themselves in LDV 4000/10 the ammo has the El-addition

a)
1 x AP-T wo sd
2 x HEI-T wo sd
Always AP-T is belted at first round for security reasons, because the first shot goes through the muzzle seal cap

b) as moveable defence weapons bombers etc.
1 x AP-T wo sd
1 x HEI wo sd printig error, should be HEI-T, because HEI nonexistent.
1 x HE-T EX w sd
Yes! EX = training ammo!
Because of belting the EX ammo, which sd after 700m, a strong hindering effect is caused at the attacker.
Way cool idea! Shock the enemy with EX-ammo popping off in the air and let’s rain the splinters on him!

(4) 3 cm weapons MK 101, MK 103

The MK 101 ammo could be changed in El-ammo for MK 103 by changing the mechanical primer screw C/33 against the electrical primer screw C/23

a)
1 x HE-T wo sd
1 x M-T wo sd
1 x APHE-T wo sd
or
1 x APHEI-T wo sd
Yes! This one has it all!
In original: Panzerbrandsprenggranatpatrone L’spur o. Zerl.
That is: Armourfireblowoffgrenadecartridge T’er wo. Det. So we are. Even for me as native it have to be careful to decipher the ingredients right.

b) Aircraft fighting merchants and light combat vessels

1 x HE-T wo sd
2 x API elektron wo sd
1 x APHE-T wo sd
or
1 x APHEI-T wo sd

c) Night fighters belt only
M-NT wo sd

d) Aircraft, which are only used fighting locomotives chuff-chuff belt only
APHE-T wo sd
or
APHEI-T wo sd

e) Aircraft fighting tanks belt only
APCBC-T/H wo sd

(5) 3 cm weapons MK 108

a) Day- and nightfighters belt only
M El wo sd
If not in stock, also M-T El res. M-NT El could be belted. All other ammo is prohibited, because of no effect.

(6) 7,9 mm onboard weapons

a) MG 17 fighters
5 x AP imp
4 x API imp
1 x B imp B = Beobachtungspatrone = observation cartridge, comparable to a small only -I-round, with phosphorus filling and impact fuse, 2mm sheet metal sensitive. Used to control hits on target via the bright phosphorus ignitions, because Luftwaffe used no traces for this. Reasons:
The lighter tracer rounds fly a different path and mislead the pilot.
The pilot should be forced to aim correctly and surprise the enemy with the fire. Not steering long bursts into the enemy via tracers to warn the enemy and consume lots of ammo.


and before the last 50 rounds as ammo-counter:

10 x AP-T 100/600 imp day or round ignites at 100m, to reduce mislead and blinding, burns till 600m
10 x Ap-NT imp night 0/700

imp improved v=verbessert, new propellant for higher V° and greater AP-capability

b) MG 17 aigrounders, MG 81 movable and in pods, MG 15

2 x AP
2 x AP-T 100/600
res.
2 x AP-NT on night missions 0/700
2 x API interchanging with 1 x API and 1 x B

7,9 API- and B-rounds contain phosphorus, the bigger API’s phosphorus or electron, the bigger HEI’s and APHEI’s a electron-thermit filling like I-bombs, the I’s a not defined fix pressed in incendiary, through a percussion cap sensitive against 2mm cardboard, spraying minimum along 10m of its way the incendiary out of the front of the grenades.

End of text

The following is also from LDV 400/10, here in short form

Colours for 7,9 mm

Ball green primer annulus
Iron Ball blue primer annulus, newer ones had additionally zinc jacket
Alu Ball green stripe over the cartridge bottom on the side
Alu Ball-T green stripe over the cartridge bottom on the side, black bullet tip, 10 mm
AP EX green ring around the primer, black bullet tip, 20mm
AP-T EX red primer annulus, black bullet tip, 20mm

AP red primer annulus
AP-T black bullet tip, 10 mm
AP-NT black bullet tip, 5 mm
API black primer annulus, older ones additional red stripe on the back, removed because of function hindering possibilities
B black bullet with tombac tip, 10 mm, old: tombac jacket with chrome tip

imp green ring in the front of the ball

Colours of the grenades 13mm and above:

HE yellow
HEI yellow with blue ring in the front
M yellow with black M
AP black
APC/H black with white H designated kinda AP/H in German, but really an APC
APCBC/H black with white H designated kinda AP/H in German, but really an APCBC
APHE black with yellow ring in front
API black with blue ring in front
APHEI black with first yellow than blue ring in front
I blue
EX grey, wo sd additional black arrows at the tip


-T light red ring in the back
-NT dark red ring in the back
w sd green ring in the front


Available ammo listed in LDV 4000/10

7,9 mm

Ball = full metal jacket used as EX for aircraft
Ball with iron core to save plumbum, used as EX for aircraft, accuracy same as Ball till 1500 m
Ball with aluminium core for EX in ranges with small space, dangerous area of the ball 3000 m
Ball-T with aluminium core 0/800
AP EX sd in real AP-NT, not visible NT on days, sd’s after 2000 m. For small shooting ranges
AP-T 100/ 600 EX w sd
Wooden EX with „bang“
Plastic EX for the drill duties without „bang“
Ball without propellant and fuse for mechanical testings of weapons

AP
AP-T 100/600 the old ones were 0/800
AP-NT 0/700
API
B

AP imp
AP-T 100/600 imp
AP-NT imp 0/700
API imp
B imp


13mm

AP-T wo sd 0/~650, 1.7 sec
AP-NT wo sd 0/~750, ~2.5 sec, printing error!
HEI-T wo sd 0/~759, 1.7 sec, yes 759! printing error?
HEI-NT wo sd sd 0/~759, 1.7 sec

AP-T EX wo sd 0/~750, 1.7 sec
HE EX wo sd
HE-T EX wo sd 0/~650, 1.7 sec
HE-T EX w sd, 0/750, 1.75 sec developed for use in ranges with not much space to prevent used solids flying around

15 mm

AP-T wo sd 0/900-1100
APC/H wo sd
HEI-T w sd sd 0/~1000, 1.7 sec
HEI-T wo sd sd 0/~1000, 1.7 sec
HEI-NT w sd, 0/~1000, 1.7 sec
you miss HEI-NT wo sd? Well, if you whish to attack ground targets at night…

AP-T EX wo 0/900-1000
APC EX wo sd
HE EX wo sd
HE-T EX wo 0/900-1000
HE-T EX w sd 0/~1100, 1.8 sec

20 mm FFM and 151/20

AP wo sd
APHE wo sd
API Ph wo sd
API En wo sd
HEI-T w sd 0/~1200, 3.5 sec FFM, 0/~1300, 3.3 sec 151
HEI-T wo sd 0/~1200, 3.3 sec FFM printing error, same V° as wsd 0/~1300, 3.3 sec 151
HEI-NT w sd 0/~1200, 3.3 sec FFM printing error, same V° as wsd 0/~1300, 3.3 sec 151
M w sd
M wo sd
I-T wo sd 0/1100, 3 sec FFM, 0/1200, 3 sec 151
I-NT wo sd 0/1100, 3 sec FFM 0/1200, 3 sec 151

AP EX wo sd
HE EX wo sd
HE-T EX wo sd 0/~1100, 3.5 sec FFM, 0/~1200, 3 sec 151
HE-T EX w sd 0/~650, 1.4 sec FFM, 0/~750, 1.4 sec 151

30 mm 101 and 103

APCBC-T/H wo sd 0/~1200
APHE-T wo sd 0/~1200
API En wo sd
APHEI-T wo sd 0/~1200
HE-T wo sd 0/~1600 ?
M-T wo sd 0/1200
M-NT wo sd 0/1200

AP-T EX wo sd only for first initial test of each a weapon to get its shooting stamp
APCBC-T EX wo sd training
HE EX wo sd function testing shooting
HE-T EX wo sd training
M-T EX only for first test of a wapon to get its shooting stamp

30 mm MK 108

M wo sd
M-T wo sd
M-NT is not listed, but possible because the bullets are the same than MK 101 and 103, same for the EX rounds


That’s all for now

Have a nice modding

airgroundmerc
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  #5  
Old 03-12-2013, 07:26 PM
1984 1984 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by airgroundmerc View Post
2 cm weapons

a) Fighters - "2 x M - 2 x HEI-T - 1 x APHE or 1 x API" (When fighting especial strong armoured aircraft like IL-2, belting is up to 50% AP-ammo, but not against 4-mot bombers.)

c) Bombers, airgrounds and fighters against ground targets and amphibious operations - "10 x HEI-T - 10 x M - 1 x API - 1 x APHE"

d) Aircraft fighting merchants and light combat vessels ships - "1 x HEI-T - 1 x APHE - 1 x API"
thanks for translation, and, i think, this quote sometimes very well confirms what i wanted to write and found about ammo belts for german fighters...

well, attached pic plus here fw 190 in 44?, here bf 109 from jg-54, here bf 109 from jg-27, here again 109 from jg-54 (only HEI-I-M? similar ammo belt, from excavations in north of russia), here fw 190 with field mod and fiters, here 109 with only APs for mg 151?, here mg131s of fw 190 (mainly, APs?), here 109 from jg-26 (mainly, HEI-I-M?), here hs-129 with mainly? APs...

ie, at least, just need 2 differents belts with mainly APs (against some ground targets and il-2s) and with mainly HEI-I-M (against planes, soft ground targets etc) or something like this, and it's apparently not hard to do...
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  #6  
Old 03-13-2013, 02:37 AM
Pursuivant Pursuivant is offline
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I don't think it's possible to model individual bullets in IL-2.

For that reason, it might be impossible for players to choose customized ammo loadouts.

OTOH, it doesn't seem like it would be that much trouble to add different "stock" MG loadouts for different missions.

Another MG option, which could be a GUI option rather than a loadout option, would be the option to change the color of tracers or have different colored tracers at the end of the MG's load (used by some units).

Something that could be an option, but is technically a loadout, would be to change the frequency of tracer rounds. Some units didn't use tracers at all, some used more than the standard number as substitutes for incendiaries.
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Old 03-13-2013, 07:17 PM
IceFire IceFire is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
I don't think it's possible to model individual bullets in IL-2.

For that reason, it might be impossible for players to choose customized ammo loadouts.

OTOH, it doesn't seem like it would be that much trouble to add different "stock" MG loadouts for different missions.

Another MG option, which could be a GUI option rather than a loadout option, would be the option to change the color of tracers or have different colored tracers at the end of the MG's load (used by some units).

Something that could be an option, but is technically a loadout, would be to change the frequency of tracer rounds. Some units didn't use tracers at all, some used more than the standard number as substitutes for incendiaries.
Every bullet is currently modelled and has been since the beginning of IL-2... they are just not rendered visually so I suppose it's possible but I don't think it's practical. Bullets are basically invisible while moving anyways which is why tracers are used.

Every gun has a pre-programmed belting list. Some, like the .50cal, recently received changes to the belting. What would be great would be to (at the least) select from a list of historically accurate belting options. The groundwork is there but I imagine it's a bit more difficult than it may appear.
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Old 03-13-2013, 07:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IceFire View Post
Every bullet is currently modelled and has been since the beginning of IL-2... they are just not rendered visually so I suppose it's possible but I don't think it's practical. Bullets are basically invisible while moving anyways which is why tracers are used.

Every gun has a pre-programmed belting list. Some, like the .50cal, recently received changes to the belting. What would be great would be to (at the least) select from a list of historically accurate belting options. The groundwork is there but I imagine it's a bit more difficult than it may appear.
It would be a really nice feature, I like it in CloD.
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Old 03-13-2013, 11:32 PM
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I agree. Visually modelling every single bullet fired requires far more resources than is reasonably practical, and is a pointless exercise since you're not going to be able to actually see a tracer-less bullet being fired. It's common sense to visually render the tracers only, while mathematically accounting the effects of all rounds fired.
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Old 03-14-2013, 09:03 AM
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Even non-tracer bullets are still actually being fired from muzzle and travel trough space in same way as tracers do, they just can't be seen, same as IRL.
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