The Spit IA should have a Constant Speed Prop

[*Buzzsaw*]

Salute

The fact the game has the Spit IA with a two speed prop is completely in error.

Yes, they INITIALLY came from the factory with the two speed prop, but this was changed starting in late June 1940 on orders from Fighter Command's Hugh Dowding.

"Spitfire: The History" by Eric B Morgan and Edward Shacklady is one of the most well respected sources for information on the Spitfire. The facts are detailed clearly in the chapter on the Spit I:

EDIT:

Unfortunately some anonymous person has complained to Image Shack that the images I posted were copyright, and they have been removed. I wonder who might be interested in censoring information which shows there should be an improvement in Spitfire performance... In any case, anyone who wishes to know the facts regarding De Havilland's upgrade of the Spit I's propellors from two speed to Constant Speed only has to examine the book, pages 53, 54, 55, and 56.

To quote from the book:

Starting on Monday 24 June de Havilland engineers drove to the twelve Spitfire Stations, each carrying six conversion sets. On arrival the engineers asked for a picked crew of fitters who had to watch the de Havilland man convert an aircraft, instructing the RAF fitters at the same time. A second aircraft was then converted by the RAF crew with the engineer's help, and a third aircraft was completed with him supporting only. He then proceeded to the next station. By 16 August every Spitfire and Hurricane had been converted, including those in store.

(there is also a little info on 100 octane fuel, but the best material there is to be found in the original files)











By the way, Kurfurst has already admitted he owns this book, yet he goes on about how the two speed props are appropriate...

[Bewolf]

Originally Posted by *Buzzsaw*

Salute

The fact the game has the Spit IA with a two speed prop is completely in error.

Yes, they INITIALLY came from the factory with the two speed prop, but this was changed starting in late June 1940 on orders from Fighter Command's Hugh Dowding.



By the way, Kurfurst has already admitted he owns this book, yet he goes on about how the two speed props are appropriate...

Oh for gods sake, can't you folks simply go out and grab a child's lollipop instead?

[mattag08]

Did they actually fly combat missions with the two speed prop?

[Skoshi Tiger]

The problem is that the differencews between a late model MkI and an MkII are so minor that most of use wouldn't see the difference.

By putting in an earlier model MkI it give mission designers more flexibility when it comes to Phoney war/Dunkirk senarios.

I bet there at least a couple of 109 models that were left out that are sorely missed!


Cheers

[*Buzzsaw*]

Originally Posted by mattag08

Did they actually fly combat missions with the two speed prop?

Yes. before the Battle of Britain. First kills scored by Spits were on Oct. 16th 1939, when two Heinkel III's were shot down over the Firth of Forth in Scotland. Those Spits were two pitch versions. And there were quite a few Spits in combat over Dunkirk in late May and early June. Not clear if those were +12 boost versions, but certainly it was likely they were equipped with two pitch props.

In any case, the Spit I can stay as a two pitch version, with max. +6 boost for those who want to do an early version. The Spit IA should be upgraded with both a constant speed prop and +12 boost.

[*Buzzsaw*]

Originally Posted by Skoshi Tiger

The problem is that the differencews between a late model MkI and an MkII are so minor that most of use wouldn't see the difference.

By putting in an earlier model MkI it give mission designers more flexibility when it comes to Phoney war/Dunkirk senarios.

I bet there at least a couple of 109 models that were left out that are sorely missed!


Cheers

1) We don't have a MkII modelled correctly.

2) There is a definite difference between a late Spit I and Spit II.

3) Yes there are a couple of 109 models left out, but those missing models were not present in anywhere near the numbers of the British aircraft which are mismodelled in the game. All of the Spitfires and Hurricanes in No. 10, 11 and 12 Groups were using 100 octane, and all the Spitfires had been re-equipped with constant speed props. That is basically the entire fleet of aircraft which fought the Battle.

In the game we don't have a single Spitfire which is running at correct performance levels.

[Skoshi Tiger]

Looking at the charts of similarly equiped MkI and MkIIs there are differences but in my opinion they are quite minor.

The following link shows a comparison between a late model MkIa and a MkIIa
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spitfire-II.html

Cheers

[angrueo]

Originally Posted by *Buzzsaw*

1) We don't have a MkII modelled correctly.

2) There is a definite difference between a late Spit I and Spit II.

3) Yes there are a couple of 109 models left out, but those missing models were not present in anywhere near the numbers of the British aircraft which are mismodelled in the game. All of the Spitfires and Hurricanes in No. 10, 11 and 12 Groups were using 100 octane, and all the Spitfires had been re-equipped with constant speed props. That is basically the entire fleet of aircraft which fought the Battle.

In the game we don't have a single Spitfire which is running at correct performance levels.

I'm not even trying to deny your point. But Oleg himself (or Luthier, I don't remember), stated that some concessions were to be made in order to address playability.
So, having in mind that it is a videogame, not a documentary, it maybe requires some balance between forces that are not exactly historic.

[jf1981]

Originally Posted by *Buzzsaw*

Salute

The fact the game has the Spit IA with a two speed prop is completely in error.

Yes, they INITIALLY came from the factory with the two speed prop, but this was changed starting in late June 1940 on orders from Fighter Command's Hugh Dowding.

"Spitfire: The History" by Eric B Morgan and Edward Shacklady is one of the most well respected sources for information on the Spitfire. The facts are detailed clearly in the chapter on the Spit I:

(there is also a little info on 100 octane fuel, but the best material there is to be found in the original files)

[Images cut]

By the way, Kurfurst has already admitted he owns this book, yet he goes on about how the two speed props are appropriate...

Great extract thanks

[*Buzzsaw*]

Originally Posted by angrueo

I'm not even trying to deny your point. But Oleg himself (or Luthier, I don't remember), stated that some concessions were to be made in order to address playability.
So, having in mind that it is a videogame, not a documentary, it maybe requires some balance between forces that are not exactly historic.

"Playability"?... you have some strange notions of what is playability.

Let's see, the Spit II was only available in small numbers at the end of the Battle, (and of course, Luthier is talking about introducing the 109E4) so the RAF is supposed to fight with the +6 boost Hurricane and the +6 boost Spit with dual pitch props?

And of course, 2/3's of the RAF fighters were Hurricanes.

By your definition of playability, the Luftwaffe is supposed to have fighters with all the performance edges, ie. a Me-110 able to outclimb and outspeed the Spitfire and Hurricane... the 110 which was such a failure in the historical battle it had to be given 109's to escort itself?

And in your perfect playable world, even though they have the inferior fighters, and the RAF will be outnumbered 3-1, the Brits are supposed to attack and shoot down the Luftwaffe bombers as well?

Never mind that even if +12 boost was enabled on the Hurricane it would still be slower and climb slower than the 109, and even against the +12 boost Spitfire, the 109 would be faster and climb better over 18,000 ft, which yes, is the altitude the German bombers typically come in at. And that if the Luftwaffe fighters even used a remote bit of common sense, they could sit over top of their bombers in the sun and bounce any RAF fighters stupid enough to make attacks...

And that the 109 can easily escape the Hurricane and Spit, the first of which has a max dive speed of 390 mph, (624kph) or the Spit with a max dive speed of 450 mph (720 kph) compared to the 109 which had far better dive acceleration, no problems with negative G from pushing its nose down, and a max dive speed of 750 kph?

Or that the 109 has an advantage in rollrate, especially over the Hurricane? Or have you never heard of rolling scissors?

Ah, I see, you want the Luftwaffe to be able to dominate at all altitudes and against all British fighters? You want the Luftwaffe players to be able to do the dumb thing, get caught low and slow, but stil be able to escape?

Great playability... if you fly for the Luftwaffe.

And since CoD is actually advertised as a 'Simulation', I think we're owed a little historical accuracy.