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Units, artifacts and armor-bearers Discussion, questions and solutions about units, artifacts and armor-bearers.

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  #1  
Old 03-01-2010, 06:20 PM
pavned pavned is offline
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Arrow King's Bounty Grand Slam Open

Following Lord Ludwig's Teana's Open tournament where KBAP untis were going 1 on 1, I decided to put a tournament where units would face each other base on a Leadership value instead of just 1 on 1. So here it is, the KB Grand Slam open where the leadership value for the whole tournament is 10 000.

But no like Lord Ludwig tournament, I'll need your help to determine the winners, cause with all the units involve it's not as easy going as a 1 vs 1 match-up.

So here is the draw (base on the US OPEN Male tennis tournament of 2009! ) To help you I put the number of units going face to face, the total health of the stack, (the health of 1 unit) and the total damage dealt by the stack (damage of 1 unit). As for Lord_Ludwig tournament, seed are base on the leadership of a single unit.

Black Dragon (1) 4 units, 4000 Total HP (1000 HP for 1) and 480 total dam (120 dam for 1)
Bye

Decaying Zombie 250 units, 12000 HP (4, 1375 Dam (5,5)
Furious Goblin 250 units, 10500 HP (42), 1250 Dam (5)

Hunter 66 units, 7260 HP (110), 627 Dam (9,5)
Lake Fairy 1428 units, 11424 HP (, 2142 Dam (1,5)

Bye
Black Knight (31) 66 units, 10 560 HP (160), 924 Dam (14)

Chosha (21) 45 units, 8550 HP (190), 1350 Dam (30)
Bye

Cave Spider 714 units, 9996 HP (14), 2142 Dam (3)
Catapult 83 units, 6649 HP (80), 705,5 Dam (8,5)

Ghost 125, units, 5000 HP (40), 750 Dam (6)
Pirate 400 units, 10000 HP (25), 1600 Dam (4)

Bye
Demon (14) 33 units, 7920 HP (240), 792 Dam (24)

Royal Thorn (12) 26 units, 9360 HP (360), 650 Dam (25)
Bye

Snake 333 units, 9990 HP (30), 1498,5 Dam (4,5)
Ancient Bear 125 units, 8750 HP (70), 1312,5 Dam (10,5)

Gorguana 83 units, 6640 HP (80), 664 Dam (
Undead Spider 769 units, 9997 HP (13), 1922,5 Dam (2,5)

Bye
Demonologist (22) 47 units, 7520 HP (160), 611 Dam (13)

Horseman (26) 55 units, 8250 HP (150), 880 Dam (16)
Bye

Fire Dragonfly 1000 units, 8000 HP (, 2500 Dam (2,5)
Foreman 76, units, 9120 HP (120), 1026 Dam (13,5)

Bear 142 units, 8520 HP (60), 1207 Dam (8,5)
Marauder 333 units, 9990 HP (30), 1498,5 Dam (4,5)

Bye
Bone Dragon ( 7 units, 5530 HP (790), 455 Dam (65)

The rest will come later, but for now I think we got some good matchs and thinking to do before setteling all the matches. How about that Famous MArauder vs Bear, will it end up like the 1 vs 1 match-up, the Bear win? Not sure! What about those Fire Dragonfly, they look mighty impressive! And they do fire damage!
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  #2  
Old 03-01-2010, 06:36 PM
Lord Ludwig Lord Ludwig is offline
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Glad to see I'm making proselytism!

And now I will have a closer look at those match-ups...
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  #3  
Old 03-01-2010, 06:38 PM
pavned pavned is offline
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I think the biggest difficulty will be to estimate the effect of Att and Def, cause a lot of small uinits won't be doing as much damages as their numbers show!

Didn't need you for that Lord_Ludwig, it's just fun, Paris (Rolan-Garros) is still so far!
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Old 03-01-2010, 08:23 PM
MaroonMaurader MaroonMaurader is offline
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If the Archdemon meets the Bone Dragon or Emerald Dragon, he's going to absolutely stomp them because you happened to pick 10,000 leadership - he has 9600 leadership, they have 9100 and 9500 respectively. It's your tournament, but were I running it I would make an exception to the rules for those two fights - for those fights IF they should arise, and those fights only, I'd adjust the leadership to 20,800 and 30,400 respectively so there's an honest equal-leadership fight.
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Old 03-02-2010, 09:13 AM
Petwin Petwin is offline
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Maybe you could play every match with both contenders having the same (minimal) amount of leadership.

So 16 Pirates vs. 5 Ghosts (400 leadership), 25 Green dragons vs 19 Black dragons (47.500 lead), 100 Pirates vs 1 Black Dragon (2.500 lead).
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  #6  
Old 03-02-2010, 11:20 AM
KongMysen KongMysen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petwin View Post
Maybe you could play every match with both contenders having the same (minimal) amount of leadership.

So 16 Pirates vs. 5 Ghosts (400 leadership), 25 Green dragons vs 19 Black dragons (47.500 lead), 100 Pirates vs 1 Black Dragon (2.500 lead).
You should be in the King's Bounty Gran Slam board with this constructive idea Obviously it's a much better way of making the draw fair..
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  #7  
Old 03-02-2010, 01:24 PM
pavned pavned is offline
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Like your ideas, but the logic behind my choice is on the game experience. Meaning when you're playing you got a total amount of leadership and have choices to do. Even if you miss 20 points in leadership you just can't get that 1 additional unit.

The results of that tournament will declare the best single stack units you can have with a 10000 leadership. I'm just curious to see how those level 3-4 units cna faire against level 4-5 units.
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  #8  
Old 03-02-2010, 03:26 PM
pavned pavned is offline
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Here are the results:

Black Dragon (1)
Bye

Decaying Zombie
Furious Goblin

Hunter
Lake Fairy

Bye
Black Knight (31)

Chosha (21)
Bye

Cave Spider
Catapult

Ghost 125
Pirate 400

Bye
Demon (14)

Royal Thorn (12)
Bye

Snake
Ancient Bear

Gorguana
Undead Spider

Bye
Demonologist (22)

Horseman (26)
Bye

Fire Dragonfly
Foreman

Bear
Marauder

Bye
Bone Dragon (7)

- For the Zombie vs Goblin, their stats are so alike that it's only a matter of which one got the most total health, in this case de Decaying Zombie.

- For the Lake Fairy vs Hunter, I had to do some calaculation and here is the total dmage for the 1sr blow each unit is dealing with the hunter double attack and the Attk and Def stats accounted for:
Hunter: 2257,2 Total damage for a total of 282 Fairies killed
Fairy: 1146 total damage for a total of 10 hunters killed

The fact that the fairy got no-retaliation enables it to win this match. But can be different if the hunter got other Double damage attack, I consider it a one time action.

- The Catapult range attack and reloaded sepcial fire/burning attack makes it enable to overcome the deficit in the starting potential damage dealing.

- The Ghost life sucking and 50% less damage from physical attack makes it a tougher opponent for the Pirate that I would have tought.

- Ancient Bear vs Snake, this one is a marathon. To give a chance for the snake I consider the 2 space special bite and running away strategy. This mean that the snake got 2 attack for 1 attack by the bear (snake 2 hexes bite, then AB attack then Snake retaliate). Because of this, after 2 special bites by the snake and running away combo, the AB have lost half his forces, going from 125 to 66 while the Snake go from 333 to 240. After that the clock is slowly ticking for the AB.

- Those Gorguana have just so many great abilities. Combine with great Def and attk stats, the Undead spider got no chance at all.

-The Foreman Def and Attk stats are proving too strong for the Firy Dragonfly. The FD is seeing is amazing 2500 potential damage dealing reduce to 1388,9 because of it's opponent stats.

- Like the Snake match-up, the Marauder 2 hexes attack and running away strategy is proving too strong for the Bear aggressive strategy. This one is even easier because of the less difference in the Attk and Def stats between each units.
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  #9  
Old 03-03-2010, 10:48 AM
Lord Ludwig Lord Ludwig is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pavned View Post

- For the Lake Fairy vs Hunter, I had to do some calaculation and here is the total dmage for the 1sr blow each unit is dealing with the hunter double attack and the Attk and Def stats accounted for:
Hunter: 2257,2 Total damage for a total of 282 Fairies killed
Fairy: 1146 total damage for a total of 10 hunters killed

The fact that the fairy got no-retaliation enables it to win this match. But can be different if the hunter got other Double damage attack, I consider it a one time action.
.
As much as I like it to have inspired others to launch their own Teana grand slam tournaments, and as much as I know I too made some miscalculations in the original one, I fear you'll have to be more careful if you want this "thought experiment" to be meaningful. Some of your results don't persuade me, but I took time to check only the one that struck me as most unlikely.

Let's consider the lake fairies vs hunters match.

First of all hunters do NOT have the double shot talent. However, they still should win easily. Considering 10,000 leadership you line up 1428 LF against 66 H, total health 11424 and 7260 respectively. Damage ranges 1-2 for the LF, 9-10 for the H. Leaving criticals aside and considering average damage, considering relative AT and DE the H always does triple damage, the LF always do 1/3 damage. On a medium grid the LF can't close distance on round 1 so the H strikes first.

Thus we have:

round 1 LF moves, H hit for 1881 killing 235

total health and number of troops: LF 9543 (1192) H 7260 (66)

round 2 LF hit for 596 killing 5, H step away and hit for 1738 killing 217

total health and numbers of troop: LF 7805 (975) H 6664 (61)

round 3 LF hit for 487 killing 5 H step away and hit for 1596 killing 199

total health and numbers of troop LF 6209 (776) H 6179 (56)

round 4 LF hit for 388 killing 3 H step away and hit for 1510 killing 189

total health and numbers of troop LF 4699 (587) H 5791 (53)

You can go on, but since after four rounds the LF have been reduced to about 40% of their original strength while H are still at 80% I think it's pretty clear who's the winner. The only variables are: 1) average damage is slightly limiting for the LF. their first strike ranges from 397 to 794, crit 1191. The first hit of the H in comparison ranges from 1782 to 1980, crit 2970. So the LF could strike lucky, but the H have also a slightly higher crit chance, and their critical is a lot more impressive 2) dust fairy (30%) could change something, but not nearly enough 3) the only real option for the LF, if the grid is very peculiar maybe they can lock the H in a corner forcing them to go melee; no penalties anyway but at least the LF gain counterstrike. Even so, I think the numbers show there's really no chance at all of the LF winning this. I would urge you to take a closer look also at some other results I think smell a bit fishy, like the ancient bear losing to the snake. However I've got no time right now to make those calculations as well, so my gut feeling may prove wrong on that one.

Last edited by Lord Ludwig; 03-03-2010 at 12:26 PM.
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  #10  
Old 03-03-2010, 02:13 PM
pavned pavned is offline
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I did made some calculation, and I use Zechnophobe formulas to determine the damage dealt when accounting Attk and Def stats.
http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthr...t=10991&page=2

Using this formula the Fairies are delaing more Damage and receiving less (much less without the Double Attack)

Thus we have:

round 1 LF moves, H hit for 1129 killing 141

total health and number of troops: LF 10295 (1287) H 7260 (66)

round 2 LF hit for 1287 killing 11, H step away and hit for 940,5 killing 117

total health and numbers of troop: LF 9355 (1170) H 5973 (55)

round 3 LF hit for 1170 killing 10 H step away and hit for 769,5 killing 96

total health and numbers of troop LF 8585,4 (1074) H 4803 (45)

round 4 LF hit for 1074 killing 9 H step away and hit for 615,6 killing 76

total health and numbers of troop LF 7969,8 (998 ) H 3729 (36)

The Hunter casualties makes them unable to get rid of Fairies fast enough and they keep hitting them, next round they wipe another 9 hunters making it 27.

It appears that the main issue here is how do we calculate damage dealt. Like I said I use the formula posted by Zechnophoe which:

For the fairies, the damages dealt are:
[100/(100+((10/3)*(DIFFERENCE_F)))] * Damage

where Difference_F is the difference between the Hunter Defence and the Fairy attack --> 15

that means the Fairies are doing only 66,6% of their normal damage. Since they are doing 1,5 mean damage, the total damage dealt is equal to the number of fairies units left in the stack

For the hunter the damages dealt are:

[(DIFFERENCE_H * (10/3))/100] * Damage + Damage
where DIFFERENCE_F is the difference between attack of the Hunter and defence of the Fairy --> 24

That means the hunter are doing 80% more damages.

Maybe this formula is wrong. Cause your numbers means they are doing 300%. But Zechnophobe said that
"Both of these calculations max out at 60 difference. At 60 greater attack you will do 300% of base damage (three times normal damage) and at 60 greater defense you will take 33% of normal damage (67% less than normal)."
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