4.11 - AI debugging

[Lagarto]

Also, if I inflict critical damage while attacking an aircraft, unintentionally collide with it or even ram it and then have to bail out, and that attacked aircraft goes down, it's never registered as a kill if my own aircraft crashed first. A kill is a kill, even a hard-won one, and should be registered as such.

[Alien]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

More to the point, the program needs to register a destroyed plane as being destroyed at the moment it loses a vital part, the crew bails out, it ditches, or it makes a crash landing.

Having the computer figure out when a plane is destroyed due to damage should be simple. If damage to the plane is sufficiently bad that the crew bails out, the computer should register a kill at the same time.

If damage kills the pilot(s), the computer should also register a kill.

Figuring out when a plane has ditched is a bit harder. But, if the computer detects that a land plane is sinking into water, it should immediately register the kill.

Figuring out when a plane has crash landed is a bit trickier, but it can't be that hard. Just have the computer recognize a kill when a) the plane's propeller is bent, b) the landing gear is up or sheared off, & c) the plane is stationary.

And, as always, for people who don't like "instant kill claiming" there should be an option in the UI so that you can turn it off.

+1!

[FC99]

First, thanks to everybody who is reporting the problems. This game is so big and complex that no single person knows everything about the game, only cumulative knowledge of many people comes close.

Originally Posted by Lagarto

Aviar, the problem, as I understand it, is of different nature. I don't want my AI wingmen to stay in formation, just the opposite. I don't mind them leading me to enemy aircraft they 'spotted' - provided they're kind enough to inform me that they're breaking off formation to engage something!

I'll take a look at that, I think that I know why this happen and if I'm right that shouldn't be too hard to fix.

My AI wingmen are usually better than me in locating enemy in the sky (they don't have to strain their eyes; being computer-controlled, they just 'know' that something's coming)

Don't bet on that, AI ability to spot enemies is reworked completely in 4.11, to a point that AI ability is probably more realistic than player's.

Originally Posted by Aviar

Well, there is NO friendly AI anywhere on the map because all 3 planes are manned by humans. Who is this AI ghost screaming on the radio that they see bandits? It really breaks the mood.

Ok, vent mode off. This is really not a fault of 4.11, as it's been around for years...maybe from day one. It's just that it happened again today and the post above mine reminded me of it.

So, if this small issue can ever be resolved it would be nice.

I'll check that, this may be related to the problem Lagarto reported so both things might be solved in one go.

Originally Posted by jameson

They still fly on your dead six where you can't see them, mind you given they now only just fly, unless you order them to do something, (with the reply, negative! negative!). lol!

Depends on your wingman's skill, additionally, AI's are more restricted in their FM in 4.11 and you as a leader must assure that your wingmans can follow you. That is no different than in RL.

Originally Posted by apexGP

Generally, AI (friend and foe) will not withdraw from an engagement zone after sustaining damage that causes heavy oil and/or fuel loss.

There is a mechanism in game that should take care of that but it probably need some refinements. Hard part with such situations is in finding good general rule because whatever you try to use there is always few exceptions.

Fighter AI (friend or foe) can often pull off spectacular deflection shots, but then fail to hit a non-maneuvering (and often damaged) target that's directly in front of them.

We will try to improve that although direct 6 o'clock shots are not that easy really due to the small size of the target. I'll see if they will get better if they allow small deflection in such situations.

Often, ace AI (QMB) will stay with their A/C after the engine has been disabled in what at first seems to be an attempt at a dead-stick emergency ditch, but ends up becoming a funeral pyre because they don't try to find open areas to attempt the landing.

That's another old thing, we will try to improve it. It is especially annoying when they try to ditch in the field when they could easily glide to the nearest airfield.

Originally Posted by JG26_EZ

Two old missions. AI was in P39's '42
While hosting, twice now, I've been asked by a pilot "Are you still here?"
I waved it off the first time.. but then again today.. different mission but same P39's.. Someone asked again "Are you still here?"
I replied "Yes", and we continued flying..
When we were finished the mission, I asked what the issue was..
He replied that the P39's were flying under the ground and thought that the host had disconnected (the reason for asking if I was sill there).

This is probably a connection problem or he is using modded map with changed landscape heights.

Originally Posted by Alien

Please get the kill stealing issue repaired at last!

We have made some changes in that but people tend to notice more the things where they feel "cheated". Interesting is that during Beta testing one of the testers thought that AI might be too good in estimating the kill and breaking off the attack.

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

More to the point, the program needs to register a destroyed plane as being destroyed at the moment it loses a vital part, the crew bails out, it ditches, or it makes a crash landing.

And, as always, for people who don't like "instant kill claiming" there should be an option in the UI so that you can turn it off.

I'm more inclined to make AI better and reduce "kill steals" that way. Occasional "steals" are completely realistic and they happened in WWII, they happen online so AI should not be an exception IMO.

[Alien]

OK, but it happens every time. Just like in 4.101, 4.09 or any earlier version. That's really annoying.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by FC99

I'm more inclined to make AI better and reduce "kill steals" that way. Occasional "steals" are completely realistic and they happened in WWII, they happen online so AI should not be an exception IMO.

I agree completely. After all, IL2 is extremely unrealistic in that the game TELLS YOU when you've gotten a kill, and instantly assigns it to you (or another pilot), as opposed to you having to visually observe the kill, claim it after the mission, get corroboration from another source, and then work out who gets credit.

Of course, what would be amazingly cool is if you could select kill claiming options by realism level and air force.

Default would be the current system - more or less instant kill claiming and only one pilot gets credit. But, you could have these options:

1) Different Kill Claim Options.

A) Easy Credit: Basically, make stuff up. If you scored hits on an E/A, you can claim a kill.

B) Strict Claiming: Your kill must be confirmed by at least one friendly unit, or it must fall on land behind friendly lines. Unless you have a gun camera system, solo kills far behind enemy lines don't get counted.

2) Partial Credit: You can claim damaged, probable kills and confirmed kills.

3) Shared Credit: You can "split" kills with other pilots who also scored hits on the plane.

4) Ground killed planes count as air kills.

5) Damaged heavy bombers count as 1 kill. Destroyed heavy bombers count as 2 "kills."

6) Killed planes are sorted by nationality.

7) Kill markings are different based on which air force you're flying for, the nationality of your opponents and/or the theater you're flying in.

[Lagarto]

When I first read that in 4.11 the AI would check the line of fire before opening up, I hoped I would no longer have to fear my overzealous AI mates firing from behind my back and right over my head to get the aircraft I'm after. However, the current situation seems even worse in that respect. Is that a side effect of the general increase in AI's aggressiveness?

[Fall_Pink?]

1st AI bug/request:

- is it perhaps possible for AI to 'recognize' and act differently when they meet heavily defended enemy ground objects while on route? When they fly to a ground attack target they fly sometimes over heavily defended air bases (which are not their target) like nothing's happening at all. Some random behavior would also be nice, perhaps depending on skill level of flight leader.

I know, it sounds like asking too much, but I would love to see some smart AI behavior here like e.g. flying nap of the earth, temporarily taking a different course or increasing altitude. Now a lot depends on the mission designer, but he/she can only preprare so much and the problem is still there if dynamic campaign missions are used.

2nd AI request:

is it possible ground attack planes (or medium bombers like A20) never fly up hill after they've attacked? I can imagine a preferred ground attack pattern will have to be calculated that AI can use. E.g. a small village surrounded by hills can sometimes only be attacked in two ways. North to south and vice versa. It would be great if AI could calculate optimal attack patterns by themselves (within certain limits) if the mission designer or dgen messed things up.

Rgs,
FP

[FC99]

Originally Posted by Lagarto

Aviar, the problem, as I understand it, is of different nature. I don't want my AI wingmen to stay in formation, just the opposite. I don't mind them leading me to enemy aircraft they 'spotted' - provided they're kind enough to inform me that they're breaking off formation to engage something!

Can you give me more details, I checked this a little in the game and if I'm leader they stay with me unless I order attack and if AI is leader they call bandits so I need to know more about the circumstances when they don't behave as you expect them.

Originally Posted by Alien

OK, but it happens every time. Just like in 4.101, 4.09 or any earlier version. That's really annoying.

Theoretically AI will not attack heavily damaged plane but if they already had that plane as a target they might proceed with the attack. Aces and Veterans will check target status and they are more likely to abort the attack. I'll tweak that and hopefully get better behavior.

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Of course, what would be amazingly cool is if you could select kill claiming options by realism level and air force.

Maybe one day, this is not the highest priority at the moment. IMO we still have more serious issues with AI.

Originally Posted by Lagarto

When I first read that in 4.11 the AI would check the line of fire before opening up, I hoped I would no longer have to fear my overzealous AI mates firing from behind my back and right over my head to get the aircraft I'm after. However, the current situation seems even worse in that respect. Is that a side effect of the general increase in AI's aggressiveness?

AI gunners are the only ones who have complex friendly fire check. You are right in your assumption that more aggressive AI is responsible for "shoulder shooting", I'll make them more restrained when player is in front of them.

Originally Posted by Fall_Pink?

1st AI bug/request:
- is it perhaps possible for AI to 'recognize' and act differently when they meet heavily defended enemy ground objects while on route? When they fly to a ground attack target they fly sometimes over heavily defended air bases (which are not their target) like nothing's happening at all. Some random behavior would also be nice, perhaps depending on skill level of flight leader.

Possible, in 4.11 we only changed some aspects of AI behavior, there are many areas we didn't touched at all. Ground attacking is one of those things and but it is WIP.

is it possible ground attack planes (or medium bombers like A20) never fly up hill after they've attacked? I can imagine a preferred ground attack pattern will have to be calculated that AI can use. E.g. a small village surrounded by hills can sometimes only be attacked in two ways. North to south and vice versa. It would be great if AI could calculate optimal attack patterns by themselves (within certain limits) if the mission designer or dgen messed things up.

Possible, we need dynamically created routes for proper functioning of the triggers so we will have to deal with that problem if we don't want to crash all of the flights into the hills.

FC

[Lagarto]

Originally Posted by FC99

Can you give me more details, I checked this a little in the game and if I'm leader they stay with me unless I order attack and if AI is leader they call bandits so I need to know more about the circumstances when they don't behave as you expect them.
FC

OK, I'll pay more attention to that phenomenon to see what makes my AI subordinates silently drift away to hunt on their own. I don't claim it happens every time but it does happen and there must be some rule to it.
And thank you very much for taking time to restrain the 'shoulder shooting'. Presently my AI squad mates make me more anxious than the enemy.

[Luno13]

I imagine it did happen though, intentionally or not, so it shouldn't necessarily be eliminated completely, in my opinion.

It's good to hear that more changes are planned!