Dot Visibility in COD and Other Flight ims.

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

for a quick comparison, go to an airport and watch passenger jets take off (yes, they are a lot larger than a WWII fighter plane) and follow them out 'til they can't be seen anymore.

Watch also how jets flying overhead can be unrecognisable due to viewing angle and whether or not a wing is in shadow.

the devil is in the detail, and semantics do matter.

my point is that currently in il2 for most moving smaller aircraft (and tanks/trucks) seen against a terrain background (forest/fields/countryside), they do not stand out enough (ballpark = visibility reduced by 2/3 compared to real life)

you stating that in RL some aircraft under certain conditions or from certain view angles become harder to see is not a proportional answer to the visibility problem we have in il2 currently

if you feel the problem is less severe than i have described in the previous post then i suspect
1) you fly in il2 with a FoV setting that artificially zooms in, rather then the "correct FoV setting" for your monitor size.
2) you have a TN based 6 bit color monitor (or older crt) that makes dots stand out more, and you believe everybody on their flat screen monitors is seeing the same
3) you dont have much experience in seeing what ground objects look like from altitudes between 1000 and 2000 meters in a small aircraft. otherwise you would have noticed you can easely see individual moving cars on open roads from that altitude (yet in il2 you need to be at 300 m to spot them, a BIG difference)

am i right or am i right ?

nobody is disputing "some aircraft" in "certain conditions" can be "difficult to see", and everybody has stories about the exceptions to the rule. the context we are discussing here is what most of these objects should look like under good visibility conditions, for a pilot with good eyesight and from the right historical "spotting distances" for the size/type object.

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by David603

A while back I saw a Tiger Moth take-off from an airport. Going on Google maps shows where I was standing was 4km from the runway. I was immediately able to identify it as a Tiger Moth and see its color (bright yellow, which probably helped a bit )

My eyesight is quite good but not the best (16-12) but in Il2 at that range all I would have been able to see would have been a dot.

exactly ! and is another good illustration of what many people report

and that il2 dot would have been nearly impossible to spot

[Uriah]

Seems like we have an additional issue now. I would guess most of us who fly these games are over 50 years. If that is true we are going to need some help in seeing planes.

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by Uriah

Seems like we have an additional issue now. I would guess most of us who fly these games are over 50 years. If that is true we are going to need some help in seeing planes.

if the main visibility "faults" mentioned earlier in this thread are corrected, you'd find most people with reasonably normal vision will have no major problems seeing planes at "normal RL visible distances" (since if they wear glasses in real life, they would wear them while using the pc).

also age related vision deterioration (in westerners) tends to affect near vision, less so far vision. so you might have some problems reading the cockpit instruments, but have less problems spotting a me-109 at 1500 meters

one other issue that many il2 users are not fully aware of, is that they need to set their FoV (field of view) settings correctly in the game for their monitor size (and for any given monitor there is only one correct FoV setting therefore). most il2 users will use the smaller FoV settings as a zoom magnifier to scan the ground, or to investigate a blip on the horizon, and this is also a way of "gaming the game" which does not represent "normal vision" (ie it is an artificial enhancement, as no ww2 fighter pilots had a pair of binoculars strapped to their face).

[imaca]

Originally Posted by zapatista

exactly

but this "leveler method" needs to address 2 separate issues

1) have some visual enhancement method added to the smaller Lod models that makes them stand out more.
- ie, instead of having the focus on them being the right color or shape, the focus should be on [b]"in a real life situation viewing this object from the same distance, how well would it stand out against a similar background ?"[b], and then using a visual enhancement method that works better across a range of objects so we are in the "visibility ballpark" instead of the "mini visibility bubble" problem we have now.
- so if in RL you for ex can detect a moving tank (or a single engine fighter in the process of taking off ) on an open field or road from 1500 m altitude, (which was historically the case for allied ww2 fighter pilots in northern france for ex), then in il2 sim under good visibility conditions you should be able to do the same (presuming you as the pilot are visually scanning that sector for targets). but right now in il2 sim this visibility distance is only 300 meters, a HUGE difference in visibility !

note: one problem with any possible "enhancement" approach is that when the same distant object is now viewed against an open blue sky (like that taxing single engine fighter), it might now be to visible and will possibly stand out to much (because our main visibility problem that needs to be corrected is against terrain background, caused by current PC technology limitations in video displays). there are ways around this, for ex the "enhancement method and color" could be chosen so it has less impact against blue open sky etc... i do not know exactly what the best solution is, but i do know what the problem is and how severe it is


2) "dot visibility is the 2e and separate problem, that will need a different additional solution (as opposed to LoD model visibility enhancement). the "dot visibility" for the most distant objects that have become very small needs an "enhanced dot visibility" fix. for CoD the LoD models will be more numerous and will therefore already extend further out (according to oleg), so for larger aircraft and other large objects they will transition to dot's later and further away. but with these "il2 dots" we have 2 separate problems that need to be addressed:
a) the current 2 or 4 pixel dots have a BIG difference in visibility on different types of flat panel monitors, with people on cheap TN monitors being able to see them at 1/2 the distance roughly compared to "normal monitors". (hence if somebody in oleg's office has a brief look at this "dot spotting problem" and uses a TN based 6 bit color monitor they might not recognize how severe the problem is for most users (and similarly if they use a CRT monitor this visibility is less of an issue because the quality in video on them is so much better then any current flat panel)
- so issue a) is leveling the playing field and having "dot visibility" equalized by using a dot display method that isnt so different depending on monitor type
b) a "il2 dot" (made of 4,2 or even 1 pixel) might well be the correct size for the distant object, but are currently not as VISIBLE as they would be in real life as discussed earlier in this thread the human eye in real life can track these very small objects rather well (a byproduct of our evolutionary development as hunter gatherers, being able track small moving prey or seeing fruit/berries stand out against a foliage background etc..). so for objects like dots that are within a certain range (eg 2 or 3 km maybe ?) they might need some visibility enhancement that makes them stand out more, even if this means they might have to be a slightly incorrect size or color (fake-real whiners please refrain from commenting and try and grasp the concept being discussed here if you want to participate in a meaningful way)

conclusion: i think the tweaks needed are very minor ones, and need to be quite subtle. i am not arguing for giant blobs flying around the screen so ADD affected people can keep track of them. i am however arguing for a realistic plane/object spotting distance so we can SIMULATE a real ww2 pilots experience, and see what he would have seen, so we can then correctly implement historical tactics, strategies, and flight maneuvers. and i do not know what the best possible solutions are, others here or at oleg's 1c crew will know more about what is viable (but it will take some lateral thinking to come up with effective solutions). i do however know how bad this problem currently is, and it is probably the sim's biggest weakness

All very interesting, and yes, it would be nice to have realistic viewing distances, but the problem isn't the simulator, its the display.
How do you suggest fixing it without improving display technology?
Unless someone can come up with something better than what is already used, this whole discussion is a bit moot.

[Wolf_Rider]

Whilst I don't disagree with what youre saying there for the most part, Zapatista.. the il2 sim was designed for CRT monitors. It is from that era. Bear in mind also that altering the FoV actually alters the depth of field.
I merely pointed out seeing what happens from an airport as a method of comparison, so that anyone interested in following this topic up, could

Whilst some good points are made; regarding technologies, no available technology will replicate what the eye can see. In reality we are dealing with scale models here, on a 3 or 4 depth background. Colour gammut also comes into play and no "peripheral vision" (this actually helps with spotting movement, rather than detail) is available.

[Erkki]

With the default dot range of 25km a single-engined plane is a single pixel. You see it against the clear sky, or against ground if you happen to look somewhere near when it moves. I usually spot the single engine planes 12-14km away, but if they move further I can keep track of them insanely far.

I for one use 1680 horizontal resolution. At 90 degrees of FOV, thats only less than 19 pixels a degree. I cant bother to run the sinis through a calculator, but how big is an aircraft with 10m wingspan(a 190) seen dead ahead/behind 25km away?

More than 2 pixels? I know I'm an exception but I have no trouble whatsoever spotting the dots, any of the game resolutions I've played with, on any of the screens. On my own home set-up and others'. And like I said before my eyesight is poor and I have that on paper.

I'm not going to insert the "get stronger glasses" joke. I think most people just havent developed the correct search pattern and methods yet. Practice makes you master. AFAIK not seeing anyone, friends nor foes, was a very common phenomenon in real life too, where only the natural talents would not need some time(and many never learned) to get rid of the "battle blindness".

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by imaca

All very interesting, and yes, it would be nice to have realistic viewing distances, but the problem isn't the simulator, its the display.

its not as simple as that

current pc display technology is completely adequate and capable to provide an on-screen visual representation of a distant fighter aircraft (be this at 500, 1000 or 1500 meters).

are you really going to try and tell me this is the best we can expect from CoD in 2011 ? (see illustrations below)

closing on a yak at 490 meters, where is the little bugger ? if it wasnt for the limited icons being used some of you here might even deny a plane is ahead of us ! not all cases are as obvious as this, but it illustrated one of the issues being discussed.


and again a yak, this time at 700 meters


these are some extreme examples of the problems with "LoD model lack of visibility" (note these specific screenshots were taken in 4.06, but similar problems still exist up to 4.08 and beyond). and the lack of visibility has nothing to do with brand of gfx card, resolution, or having a calibrated monitor, it is simple a problem in the way the il2 sim tries to display what it is programmed for (rather then have it programmed to display objects at realistic viewing distances, and compensate by adding visual clues)

Originally Posted by imaca

How do you suggest fixing it without improving display technology?

the first part of the discussion is to identify how severe the problem is (as this thread is doing so far), and the 2e step will then focus on possible solutions. to just say "yes there is a problem" and then conclude we would never be able to do anything about it is a bit defeatist

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

Whilst I don't disagree with what youre saying there for the most part, Zapatista.. the il2 sim was designed for CRT monitors.

unless this major problem is a priority for oleg's team and deliberately addressed, it will be to late to complain once the next sim is released (several times when these previous problems were discussed with oleg he in the end refered to "part of the problem is the old gfx engine and its limitations" (i paraphrase).

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

Bear in mind also that altering the FoV actually alters the depth of field.

yes and not many people are aware of that

Originally Posted by Wolf_Rider

Whilst some good points are made; regarding technologies, no available technology will replicate what the eye can see. In reality we are dealing with scale models here, on a 3 or 4 depth background. Colour gammut also comes into play and no "peripheral vision" (this actually helps with spotting movement, rather than detail) is available.

right now the problem is so severe it makes the older sim just about unplayable in a competitive situation, and completely takes the fun out of it in coops and campaigns. i dont believe we can only choose between either the major problem we have had so far, and perfection on the other hand. there is a major grey area in between those 2 extremes, and the pendulum right now needs to shift over to the "realistic spotting and tracking" distances in a big way !!

btw, you didnt answer my earlier question to you

if you feel the problem is less severe than i have described in the previous post then i suspect
1) you frequently fly in il2 with a FoV setting that artificially zooms in, and use that view to identify, track and locate targets, rather then the "correct FoV setting" for your monitor size.
2) you have a TN based 6 bit color monitor (or older crt) that makes dots stand out more, and you believe everybody on their flat screen monitors is seeing the same

i'd be interested to know the answer to those ( just give me your monitor details if you are unsure)

[Erkki]

Zapatista, send uncompressed(png, bmp) pics here using the same resolution you would in game.

Only certain people seem to have these issues.

if you feel the problem is less severe than i have described in the previous post then i suspect
1) you frequently fly in il2 with a FoV setting that artificially zooms in, and use that view to identify, track and locate targets, rather then the "correct FoV setting" for your monitor size.
2) you have a TN based 6 bit color monitor (or older crt) that makes dots stand out more, and you believe everybody on their flat screen monitors is seeing the same

1) widest FOV, only use zoom-in to ID very far-out targets.
2) 1680 x 1050 TFT

Only LOD problems I have seen were certain Spitfire models missing a wing at some distances vs. FOVs (now only one model seems to do it anymore) and some single engine planes, like La-5, 109, P-39, having different LOD phases(or at least appearing to be larger than others) far out.

4.10 fixed those though.