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#61
07-05-2012, 04:29 PM
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#62
07-05-2012, 04:46 PM
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Sure was, but again seems many think that they should be like the very few that became legendary aces. We play a game and it sets some limitations we have to live with. And one is that we will never get accurate FM/DM/CEM because hardware just is not up to it or you would have wireframe graphics  I think the expectations are too high combined with the saturation of information/notes/memoirs/interviews and no-one will never be happy no matter how hard a dev tries. So what we can do try is to get performances and modellings within an acceptable limit so the gameplay will not suffer but again not become too simplified. Then CoD and it's sequels will shine when the balance is found with the CORE of the sim being rock solid to build on. Just some thoughts..
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#63
07-05-2012, 05:10 PM
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You're polite Flanker, but do you really think all the planes require the same skill to succeed? I don't think to say garbage by stating that TnB fighting require less self-discipline (see patience) and every new aggressive pilot can get used to it at the first dogfight very fast, since it's a "there 's no need to think: move the stick, aim and fire!" Instakill. If the Zeke's pilot keeps downing the Wildcat's one who's trying to turn with him, don't you think that the american pilot will try something different BEFORE the japanese one? Infact the latter does not need to change his tactic at all.. he's winning. IMO BnZ is harder to learn, required more time and many KIA: it's less rewarding and a guy without patience will switch plane (do you remember the 190's IL2 history?). Because of this I think that the average pilot of BnZ planes (109/190/Hellcat/P47/P51) is actually more skilled than a Spitfire/Zeke/La7 pilot. Still you enter in one of the most populated IL2 dogfight server and you find most of the 109s flying high and teamworking, and the rest is below, so that I have to fly with SpitfireI/La5/P51C and together with a teammate to have some fun since most of the guys there seem to not cooperate: of course still you find a single 109 who want to turn with you and dies fast... but the same number of BnZing Spitfires. Of course I'm talking about IL2 1946... only Luthier knows when CloD will be worthy of been played by me. [/OT] Sooo... returning to the FM argument: Osprey states that "after 14 months of utter domination by the 109 the FMs are at least brought closer"... Flanker.. do you really believe it was a FM issue? The last thing about the FM test (to not be totally OT  ): have you guys a direct link with the developers? Are you sure that your tests are helping CloD?Since I think this devotion should be directed where you can actually see results... what about a DCS World MOD?  Maybe one day CloD will actually allow the community to gain from your knowledge and perseverance... SDK?
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 A whole generation of pilots learned to treasure the Spitfire for its delightful response to aerobatic manoeuvres and its handiness as a dogfighter. Iit is odd that they had continued to esteem these qualities over those of other fighters in spite of the fact that they were of only secondary importance tactically.Thus it is doubly ironic that the Spitfire’s reputation would habitually be established by reference to archaic, non-tactical criteria. Last edited by 6S.Manu; 07-05-2012 at 05:38 PM.
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#64
07-05-2012, 05:26 PM
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#65
07-05-2012, 05:51 PM
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What I am saying Manu is that there are average pilots that could not get the most out of their plane no matter how accurately it was modelled. They might not be bad sticks but maybe their SA is not the best or some situations just are too much for them to handle. I am talking about PERSONAL abilities here, not the FM or whatever. You can give an idiot the best tool in the world and he could do nothing with it when a more talented guy would do wonders even with a less good tool. Got the pic? I've seen over the years many complainers how overmodelled something is and when proven wrong you are a cheater. Again nothing to do with FM or whatever but PERSONAL abilities. Boom and Zoom whereas Turn and Burn BOTH require skill to get good results and not yourself killed. And again the FM has nothing to do with it, but how YOU can handle the situation. You are given a tool, make the best use of it in the situation. Learn how to use it properly. So I think that if we got FM/DM/CEM/Whatever well done as the CORE of the game then ALL would have a good chance to become a proficient pilot. In current situation there are too many things making some planes better over some due limitations of the game, not the player. But remember that some pilots EXPECT a Spitfire or a Bf109 of that matter to do what they THINK it should, from whatever experience they get it from(books, discussions, programs, insert source here). And it is easy to come here screaming how shit plane A is over plane B when the fault is 99% between the chair and stick. Do not EXPECT but LEARN. Then you will be the ace of all times or whatever or you will just enjoy the game even more. So basically..Devs should make the CORE (FM/DM/CEM/whatever) of the game rock solid. After that the rest is up to the player and his own abilities, not the game limitation. I hope I made myself clear in a positive way 
Last edited by Flanker35M; 07-05-2012 at 05:55 PM.
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#66
07-05-2012, 06:30 PM
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Experienced Spitfire and Hurricane pilots have learned spawn inland and grab altitude -- lots of it. 20,000 feet for starters. Which is not particularly helpful when a half dozen 109's are tag-teaming each other vulching the RAF coastal airfields. If a Spit or Hurri tries a boom and zoom on an unwary 109 below, he better get it right the first time and make his kill. Reason: Spits and Hurries have to CUT THROTTLE when initiating a dive -- they lose their ailerons past 420 mph otherwise (despite spec of 450 mph dive limit --that's a laugh. Yet a big concern by Blue pilots that the Spit's roll rate is 3 times too fast at 410 mph. Better use the rudder to do your fast rolls, 'cause you ain't gonna have ailerons too much longer!  ). So if you miss your shot on that first attempt -- keep diving and run away. Otherwise the 109 will bunt down after you, accelerate in HIS dive and catch you as you pull up to regain altitude to repeat your boom and zoom. Don't forget, the Spit and Hurries didn't have WEP at all, unlike your 1.3 -1.4 ata that you can use over and over and over. Now we have "WEP" -- last time I used it (12 lbs boost, 3000 rpms, Full Lean mixture) on Tues night I blew my engine after a 1.5 minute climb just before reaching an unsuspecting 109. He flew on unaware while my smoking Spit fell away losing power. Yet we have Blue pilots quibbling over whether we should have 3 minutes or 5 minutes of "WEP" when we don't even have TWO minutes!!!! So, call it whining, whinging, or whatever. I fully realize 109 pilots have their FM concerns as well, especially concerning control surfaces. But I don't for a second cast aspersions on their fighting skills just because they've had it easy against the RAF fighters since Day 1. Exception: the very former Spitfire IIa. Rarely seen online (at most five were allocated). Despite very strong objections on this forum, we're finally seeing some acknowledgement at least from the devs that the Boost Cut Out Override gate (Spit)/plunger (Hurricane) actually served a purpose. The devs still refuse to actually give historical performance to this all-important feature, for reasons not mentioned yet. All to say, Spit and Hurricane pilots have THEIR challenges, too. It's not the easy turn and burn you make it out to be, unless we chance upon a noobie 109 pilot. Nor is boom and zoom easy, I fully realize, when you have only a few seconds to judge speed, deflection, and convergence. Not to mention the 15 seconds of ammunition the 109's are limited to!
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#67
07-05-2012, 06:54 PM
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In that Chuck sumed it up nicly so many years ago when he said.. Quote:
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Theres a reason for instrumenting a plane for test..
That being a pilots's 'perception' of what is going on can be very different from what is 'actually' going on.
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#68
07-05-2012, 07:06 PM
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Forgive me if I'm multi-quoting you post
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I'm all for a sim in which pilot's skill is far more important than plane's performance. IL2 is not one but still it's the best out there (the 4.11 patch is great btw!) Quote:
And this has a lot to do with FM. IMO. This is why in a 1v1 I lose against one guy but I win if we switch planes. Both we can fly at the same way, but on plane performes better than the other. This is the reason I think that skill is higher for the ones who fly not friendly planes... because, against a pilot of the same experience (but in a friendly plane, call it easy planes, as 109F4 or G2 in IL2) he's going to have his a$$ kicked... once, twice, 10 times until he "learn" that he has not to do and, at last, how to fight. Luckly for him he's a virtual pilot so he can learn dying. Quote:
So your plane is a little slower than the historical one... the why you still try to fly it in the wrong way? Why didn't you react learining instead of the asking for the correct one "AS PRIORITY" when there are so many broken things in this game? I'm happy that the develper "tried" to implement the RAF fighters with 100oct: is it historical fuel? great!! But I think also that some use this issue as an excuse for their poor flying. Every Fw190 pilot in IL2 had to fly plane with worser performance than the one of a captured and crashed plane. Probably many of them cried on a message board (with Oleg denying and closing their mouths) but still the 190 was the butcher bird in most of the dogfight servers (the full difficulty ones, I mean) So by experience I don't agree at all with the sentence of Osprey since the new FM is been pictured as solution, but bad pilots will keep flying in wrong way, ignoring every tactic and strategy: probably they will stick their nose on the enemy's six knowing that "this time" they could reach it... if they learned, as you say, that altitude/speed is life then they should succeed also in the 87oct version. Quote:
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A whole generation of pilots learned to treasure the Spitfire for its delightful response to aerobatic manoeuvres and its handiness as a dogfighter. Iit is odd that they had continued to esteem these qualities over those of other fighters in spite of the fact that they were of only secondary importance tactically.Thus it is doubly ironic that the Spitfire’s reputation would habitually be established by reference to archaic, non-tactical criteria. Last edited by 6S.Manu; 07-05-2012 at 08:12 PM.
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#69
07-05-2012, 07:47 PM
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Good post Manu Learn the tools of the trade and you will be successfull
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#70
07-05-2012, 08:10 PM
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Snapper, I'm not limiting my opinion on what I've seen in CloD.
I don't fly Clod. I did 34 hours, and most of them were for settings configuration. I just reported the fight in which my chasing Spitfire followed my from 6km to 500m over my base where me and 2 other guys killed him. I'm taking about IL2 in general: so there are not only SpitI and 109E... I understand that the engine cut is an handicap... And it's a good thing that they implemented it (IL2 Spitfire's flown many years without the Miss Shilling's orifice). I also understand the weapon limitation.. it's all historical (but I question CloD's DM model: damage could be roughly modelled as FMs). In many years of flight simming I almost can remember every time I found a Spitfire at high altitude dictating the fight: I remember them since with some of these pilots I've became friend (when somebody give me a good fight and fly well I'm used to make him my compliments). I remember many of my KIA (above all the one made by Jaws in his 190 against my spitfire... I learned a lot from that single kill) since I really hate to be killed. But I can also not forget how many times I BnZed planes with target fixation who had a plane with better performance but didn't used it correcly (SpitIX should be untouchable by Fw190 and because of this it was my favourite prey...I fled only to kill them ).The few time I entered in a CloD server it was the same thing (but with the addon of invisible planes, ghosts and monkeys operating the flaks). Sadly my mind refuses to fly with CloD anymore, and so most of my teammates... 20 pilots with CloD, only one still fly it and it's one of the nicer poster here). Anyway it's fun that you said about the spitfire veterans: I'm not used to fly spitfires but 2 weeks ago I've taken two cadets of my squad in a server... 1940, too many blue and so we took the RAF fighters... we took the SpitfireIs so they could learn the "enemy" plane. I told them to spawn on a base far from the coast because, I guessed, the 109s would come there and cap over our bases... "we spawn and gain altitude far from the coast. Then, with altitude, we enter in the combat zone"... I was right, after some minutes the 109s were there and I managed to kill 3 of them but I crashed while landing against an invisible building...  . God cried that night.I think that the veterans should teach this "tactic", by Chat or by Briefing. With a so inferior plane RAF pilots should not pass the channel at 2km... I will try to enter in the server to see if things are changed.
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A whole generation of pilots learned to treasure the Spitfire for its delightful response to aerobatic manoeuvres and its handiness as a dogfighter. Iit is odd that they had continued to esteem these qualities over those of other fighters in spite of the fact that they were of only secondary importance tactically.Thus it is doubly ironic that the Spitfire’s reputation would habitually be established by reference to archaic, non-tactical criteria. Last edited by 6S.Manu; 07-05-2012 at 08:17 PM.
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