Durability of aircraft to MG (< 8mm) guns

[major_setback]

Originally Posted by winny

This might be of interest to you.

Tests by the RAF indicated that both the .303 and 7.92mm AP bullets had some problems penetrating the structure of the relatively small and light Blenheim bomber.
Both guns were fired at a range of 200 yards (180m) through the rear fuselage at the 4 mm armour plate protecting the rear gunner, which was angled at 60º to the line of fire. The results were poor; only 33% of the .303" rounds reached the armour (the rest being deflected or absorbed by the structure) and 6% penetrated it.
In contrast, only 23% of the 7.92 mm bullets reached the armour, and just 1% penetrated.

Notice how close they were fired from, and the He-111s had better armour than a blenheim.
Add to that the fact that only 2 of the 8 guns would have had AP rounds and you end up with a lot of German bombers getting home when they shouldn't have.

This was not the case when the roles were reversed.

Yes, there was one pilot, can't remember who (Moran?) who purposely didn't finish off bombers, and let them return damaged because it was a bigger blow to morale if the rest of the bomber unit saw a bomber with dead crew members return, than if it just went missing.
The bomber would be out of action anyway until repaired.

[Flying Pencil]

Originally Posted by winny

In contrast, only 23% of the 7.92 mm bullets reached the armour, and just 1% penetrated.

Notice how close they were fired from, and the He-111s had better armour than a blenheim.
Add to that the fact that only 2 of the 8 guns would have had AP rounds and you end up with a lot of German bombers getting home when they shouldn't have.

I had read this test before, (It was a Blen I, but practically same rear to Blen IV), but the lower penetration of 7.92 is new to me!

Thanks!

[Flying Pencil]

Originally Posted by ElAurens

Remember that you cannot compare results in IL2 with CoD.

IL2's damage model, while state of the art in 2001 is now very out of date, and actually rather simple when compared to the new sim.

Just be prepared for the whines of "The .303s are UBER!!!" by Jerry, who will not take into account that there will literally be hundreds more things that can be damaged in the new sim. (Shooting individual spark plugs, or the pilot oxygen system, for example).

I am not, and Visual /= Actual.

I am all about an exaggerated power of .303 for the sake of getting to zit faced teen happy.

All the damage point simply make it possible to take out parts, but still fly the aircraft.

For instance, the elevator cable may be shot away, but you can still fly using the TRIM (forget about trying to combat, but at least you can maintain control).

[Flying Pencil]

Originally Posted by major_setback

Yes, there was one pilot, can't remember who (Moran?) who purposely didn't finish off bombers, and let them return damaged because it was a bigger blow to morale if the rest of the bomber unit saw a bomber with dead crew members return, than if it just went missing.
The bomber would be out of action anyway until repaired.

...which would also take a lot more resources to repair.

Drive home the FeAr!

[swiss]

Originally Posted by Flying Pencil

...which would also take a lot more resources to repair.

More than what?

While you can't scrap a wounded soldier it works pretty well with ACs.

[winny]

I know Bader was of the opinion that the other German aircrew seeing a badly shot up bomber returning home was very bad for their morale. More so than another 'failed to return'.

I know of one RAF squadron that that reckoned they fired around 7,000 rounds into a He-111 and it still managed to get away. I'd hate to know what was going on inside it though

[swiss]

Originally Posted by winny

. I'd hate to know what was going on inside it though

Ever put a tomato in a microwave?

[Flying Pencil]

Originally Posted by WTE_Galway

Just a small snapshot to keep the whole 30mm versus 0.50 cal thing in perspective ....

Some excellent info on the effectiveness of those weapons:

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/WW2guneffect.htm

http://users.telenet.be/Emmanuel.Gus...n/fgun-pe.html

http://www.ww2incolor.com/forum/show...mp-Machineguns.

[Flying Pencil]

Originally Posted by winny

I dunno, were blenheims fabric covered? My Blenheim knowledge is practically zero...

Full metal except for the control surfaces being fabric covered.

[Flying Pencil]

Originally Posted by swiss

More than what?

While you can't scrap a wounded soldier it works pretty well with ACs.

Wounded soldier takes a lot of resources as well.

And the Germans would repair very badly damaged aircraft simply because they could not get replacements.
Germany did not really ramp up production until late in war when they realized they needed significantly more units then they had.