Official Fulqrum Publishing forum - Durability of aircraft to MG (< 8mm) guns

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- IL-2 Sturmovik: Cliffs of Dover (http://forum.fulqrumpublishing.com/forumdisplay.php?f=189)

- - Durability of aircraft to MG (< 8mm) guns (http://forum.fulqrumpublishing.com/showthread.php?t=18783)

Durability of aircraft to MG (< 8mm) guns

I wonder about durability of aircraft to MG damage.
Will the game challenge fighters players to marksmanship and get in point blank?

In IL-2 and especially many other games, a quick burst and the EA is a flaming ball of fire (speaking of Rifle Caliber Munitions, not .50 and heavier)
Reality is, aircraft on both sides RTB with hundreds of holes. It was said half jokingly "Its not the damage you do, but how much lead you fill the EA with"

Simply a case of armaments not keeping up with times. The guns where practically the same used in WW1. Sure some 20mm was showing up, but in 1940 it was by far 7.62mm and 7.92mm rounds.

RAF pilots reported emptying their entire load into He-111, only to see it fly away (chances are the 111 was to never fly again, and no, the Hurri pilot did not miss)

For example, behind the pilot is a large bulkhead, while not armored, would have stopped most Rifle Caliber Munitions from getting to him, and resulted in He-111's suffering fewer losses then Ju-88's in BoB
Excellent view is located here (huge image) (ignore the engines ;) )
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Fi...kel_He_111.jpg

In another game I play, rarely is the He-111 pilot killed, usually due to frontal attacks.

http://oz.by/data/img/20/135/608/fr/3.jpg

read my post here, abit info on it. Trying hard to find the clip...

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthr...t=18774&page=2

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ltbear (Post 225351)

read my post here, abit info on it. Trying hard to find the clip...

http://forum.1cpublishing.eu/showthr...t=18774&page=2

Already read it.
In fact..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ltbear (Post 225240)

Realy hope this damedge is from an Internal explosion and not from MG`s....

I promise to find the interviuv i have from a German ground crew member who repaired the planes doing bob...

He statet that the Brit guns in many cases killed the crew but left the plane flyable....And he realy disliked repairing damedged HE-111`s because it took werry long pacthing up all the holes....

Hes opinion was that the british planes had werry effective guns against the bombers and the MG`s was a terror weapon against the crews. You dont need to aim at a specific spot, you just spray the entire bomber with these small bullets, no matter what you will kill some crew members.

He also statet that the ME-109 was a great fighter, but the pilots complained that there was not enough cannon ammo to be effective against bombers and the two MG`s was a waste of weight. They should have removed the MG`s and give the pilots 100 cannon rounds more...

He also told that the Pilots even before BOB complaintet that they had so little fuel. Doing the entire BOB ground crews was working on a field mod for a drop tank, that was what they used many hours on, trying to give the fighter pilots 200ltr more fuel. It was so stupid. We got told that we would get racks for bombs, but no one in high command thought about it was fuel they needed. They had so little fuel and then they would add 250KG of bombs so they would use even more fuel, it was stupid. The ME-109 was a fighter, this idea turning it into a Jabo just show how little the high command understood about airwar.

Who in there right mind would send fighters across the chanal with 400 ltr`s of fuel. With combat they had at most 70mins of fuel. We had to salvage many fighters who had to land somewhere because they didnt have the fuel to get back. Sometimes the "swimmer" in the gas tank would not work correctly so it would show the wrong ammount of fuel, it could also get stuck doing heawy combat manouvers. Many of us on the ground was glad that we didnt have to fly "over there"'

He talks werry little about the FW-190, but he says that it was a great plane in air, but could be a nightmare for the groundcrews. And many 109 pilots never got used to fly it. They joked about it. They give me a sportscar (109) then they let me have fun with it and after that they give me a truck(190)

I promise i try to dig the 15 mins clip up i have somewhere on the 1000 CD`s/DVD`s i have lol....

This might be of interest to you.

Tests by the RAF indicated that both the .303 and 7.92mm AP bullets had some problems penetrating the structure of the relatively small and light Blenheim bomber.
Both guns were fired at a range of 200 yards (180m) through the rear fuselage at the 4 mm armour plate protecting the rear gunner, which was angled at 60º to the line of fire. The results were poor; only 33% of the .303" rounds reached the armour (the rest being deflected or absorbed by the structure) and 6% penetrated it.
In contrast, only 23% of the 7.92 mm bullets reached the armour, and just 1% penetrated.

Notice how close they were fired from, and the He-111s had better armour than a blenheim.
Add to that the fact that only 2 of the 8 guns would have had AP rounds and you end up with a lot of German bombers getting home when they shouldn't have.

This was not the case when the roles were reversed.

Aircraft comes home, written off and half the crew is dead. Does not count in that days statistics but was not good for moral and German combat strength.

Maybe I need to take some gunnery training. I have a hard time knocking out He111's with the early mark Spitfire and Hurricane. Only if I aim at a specific spot and concentrate on that, will something fall off or start burning. This to the point that I mostly resort to Ho's when there's escorts around. When you select arcade, you can see the arrows where bullets enter. I've left Heinkels behind looking like a porcupine and crew riddled with arrows. Just kept chugging along. Pretty realistic from what I've read.

bring the x8 .303s in from 350-400 yards to 200-150 yards and from a spread to a point harmonization and they will do more than sufficient damage to enemy AC.

they will never give the explosive effects of cannon of course, but they will penetrate far enough and be able to create desirable results (explode ammo stores, fuel tanks, cut controls, damage engines etc) .

the gaping holes in that he111 image are just visual representations of damage and not necessarily literal hit marks from the .303s.

1c said that they are updating the DM to show actual bullet entry holes but they also have some 'generic' damage visuals as well.

If your worried about the damage output being too high because of seeing those big holes don't worry.. they are just visual representations of 'that part of the plane being damaged' not literal MG damage.

Remember that you cannot compare results in IL2 with CoD.

IL2's damage model, while state of the art in 2001 is now very out of date, and actually rather simple when compared to the new sim.

Just be prepared for the whines of "The .303s are UBER!!!" by Jerry, who will not take into account that there will literally be hundreds more things that can be damaged in the new sim. (Shooting individual spark plugs, or the pilot oxygen system, for example).

Will bullets ricochet inside aircraft and do more damage?

Quote:

Originally Posted by ElAurens (Post 225448)

yep... and heres proof!! Everything in Purple is part of the damage model.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...nShots_001.jpg

I dont have a pics of the 109 damage model but here are some other development pics that show plenty of internal modeling which will have a DM applied to it like in the spit pic...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...nShots_002.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v2...-109E-3_01.jpg

the .303s will run into plenty of damageable stuff inside these planes :twisted: