How to fly a Spit 1a correctly!?

[TomcatViP]

Originally Posted by reflected

TomCat: I have just the opposite experience. I dived down in a Spit MkIa on a 109 that was running away on the deck, but couldn't get enough speed to catch him. He started climbing and I couldn't keep up with him. He gained separation and alt advantage (I did everything I could - emergency boost, trimming - no avail.

Then there are those real anecdotes on that spitfireperformance website that say a Spit outclimbed a 109 (Of course, that site is probably biased).

What I mean is that you should stop the personal attacks you and some others too, and give us some hard data. If it proves that something is wrong, I'm all for correcting it - not that it' up to me

But the fact that you got shot down by a better pilot online hardly proves anything. Mind you, I agree that current FM-s need a lot of fine tuning.

Typical...
1. Who said I was shot down ?
2. Where did you read from me a personal attack ?
3. I did say above 5km and around 20kft

[Robo.]

Originally Posted by TomcatViP

That's what I don't like with ppl writing things like you did : you always put a negative tint on others comments.

That was not my intention, I just disagreed with you. I have never met you in combat and wouldn't comment your skill as such. Everybody makes mistakes in combat and everybody deals with them in a different manner, that's OK.

Originally Posted by TomcatViP

Are you so stupid to think that I am advocating dragging a 109 from deck to 20k ft ?

This is what you wrote: ''One of my fav move if a 109 chase me in my hurri is to climb up if I feel that I hve time to reach the 20K+ feet where any fight will be on even grounds. ''

I didn't say you tried to do that from the deck, I say you won't be able to win a climbing contest with a 109 in any RAF fighter

As for what reflected wrote - he probably means this site, esp. pilot recalls in the bottom section

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit1vrs109e.html

Biased or not, these are 'carefuly' chosen entries from logbooks and interviews, very subjective of course, but still valid and very interesting. The problem is, it does not say anything about initial statuses of the a/c involved, e.g. speed and alt.

These kind of situations are all about relative energy, one of the key skills of a sim pilot is a correct (and pretty much constant) judgement of your opponent's energy relative to your own. The usual dogfight situation is usualy far from top speed race or climbing competition. But if you see a 109 that's slower than you, can certainly ouclimb her

[TomcatViP]

Originally Posted by Robo.

That was not my intention, I just disagreed with you. I have never met you in combat and wouldn't comment your skill as such. Everybody makes mistakes in combat and everybody deals with them in a different manner, that's OK.

And mistake I make

Originally Posted by Robo.

This is what you wrote: ''One of my fav move if a 109 chase me in my hurri is to climb up if I feel that I hve time to reach the 20K+ feet where any fight will be on even grounds. ''

I didn't say you tried to do that from the deck, I say you won't be able to win a climbing contest with a 109 in any RAF fighter

Yup unless you are at alt

The point here is not to gain from the 109 that seat in your 6 but to hve enough time to drag him were the fight will be on even grounds.

Originally Posted by Robo.

As for what reflected wrote - he probably means this site, esp. pilot recalls in the bottom section

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit1vrs109e.html

Biased or not, these are 'carefuly' chosen entries from logbooks and interviews, very subjective of course, but still valid and very interesting.

That's all the prob with this kind of website. it's biased and partial. You can't take all the good and leave the bad, scientifically doing that you are toasted !

Giving all the efforts the author as provided it's sad that he/she did fall in that muddy ground (personal comment).

Regarding the E state that has to be put in consideration, you said it all.

The 109E was one of the best climber of WWII. Such it was that the late k4 was said to retrieve the same climb speed. There is no secret to that : fined tuned aero coeffs to let a thicker airfoil being practicable with a surrealistic Power to weight ratio (if you make abstraction of the engine weight, the basic structure of the 109 compete with many late war design - exception made of the Zero Zeke).

But this is OT. That's not what I wanted when I jumped into that discussion. Neither being harsh with you.

~S!

[Robo.]

I agree, Tomcat and thank you for you reply, I appreciate that. Although the FMs in game are off in many aspects, the basic characteristics are there already - and simply as that, the 109 will outclimb anything IF flown correctly.

As for the topic - Flying for the RAF, I very much prefer the Hurricane (Rotol prop.) as it's faster than Spitfire Mk.Ia and it climbs better. I know this is weird and historically incorrect, but that's how it is in 1.05. Although the Spitfire has some advantages over the Hurricane (control response, high speed handling etc), some might prefer either due to their style of flying. Testing both on ATAG, Hurricane outran and outclimbed the Mk.Ia at any height. (Hurricane had slightly less fuel, but was still much heavier than Spitty)

Spitfire and Hurricane are both good enough to give 109s some grief, but mind you that if you're a good RAF pilot and you meet a equally good 109 pilot who sees you, he's gonna win unless he makes some mistake. You can make him do that mistake of course, but as for 1.05, capabilities of his aircraft will allow him to win and keep the upper hand and should he be getting in trouble, he can disengage from the fight at any time. I am not saying that flying a 109 'correctly' and be succesful in it is easy though, quite the opposite.

Above is my opinion based on the experience on ATAG, your results may vary

[Daliaraptor]

Thanks a lot so far for all this tips and tricks but it doesent help.
I cant even chase a bomber in free fall, which i have shoot down, gues the Engines were haevy damaged or dead , the crew alraedy ejected. This bomber escaped with out a Pilot in the cockpit and i made a power dive?????
So i researched just a litle bit about historical correctness. And there was as far as i know now, no Plane that made a faster power dive than the Spit.
Which Plane the fastest was is really difficulty to find out. Some sources say the Spit was faster below 4000 feet some say it was faster in high altitude.
But anyway i think first of all is gameplay and "fun" even its a simulator, in real live is it different either. So pleas ATAG put the 2a in it and let the RAF Strike back

Or im totaly wrong???

[bw_wolverine]

There's a very simple thing Spitfire and Hurricane pilots can do in the game to avoid being on the unhappy end of a 109's bullets that most pilots do not do because they're either impatient or do not plan ahead:

Don't engage an enemy fighter unless you have a significant advantage.

Obviously there will be times when you don't have a choice. Minimize those!

When I was flying by myself mostly I took to flying very high (always 16k ft or more) while looking for contacts and usually higher than that (around 20k).

I may not have found as many enemy fighters, but those I did find were far less likely to have an advantage on me. In many more cases than not, I came out the victor.

Then I started flying on comms. Grouping up with others, I would usually take a wingman role and not lead the flight. People like to fly low and fast over to enemy bases. They like to go in at max 8k ft because it's easier to find enemy planes. They see a plane and they engage it. It's like crack cocaine to a junkie on withdrawl. MUST. ATTACK. DOT!

Needless to say, I didn't fare as well flying in those situations. I'm not the greatest pilot out there. I have a hard time seeing those fighters before they see me. Unfortunately, at these altitudes and situations once a fight starts, the enemy had the advantage more often than not.

So to any Spitfire/Hurricane pilot who is frustrated by fast flying fast climbing 109s, I say don't play their game! They WANT you to try and beat them at their game. Don't play it! Fly high. Fly smart. And for the love of all that's holy, pick and choose your engagements with thought. You don't have to dive down on that 109 right away the moment you see him. Observe, think, act.

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by Daliaraptor

So i researched just a litle bit about historical correctness. And there was as far as i know now, no Plane that made a faster power dive than the Spit.

If I remember correctly, that particular spitfire was heavily modified (special propeller, etc.) and was not representative of the 'service' spitfires that fought on a daily basis. While it's true that the late-model Spitfire has one of the highest critical Mach numbers of period fighters, there's more to fighter performance than that.

So pleas ATAG put the 2a in it and let the RAF Strike back

The Spit 2a is the only aircraft getting historical performance at the moment. All others underperform greatly. As a result the 2a is game-breaking in the sense that it outperforms the 109 in every aspect.

109 pilots attacking a Spit 2a must surprise the spit and kill it on the first pass, or die. Once the pilot of the 2a knows you're there, he can out-climb, out-turn, and out-run you.

As it stands, the combination of Hurricane/Spitfire Mk1a is very potent when flown well. If it seems that the 109 is overpowered, that is because so many rookie pilots insist on doing tight circles on the deck, or invading France at low altitude.

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by bw_wolverine

There's a very simple thing Spitfire and Hurricane pilots can do in the game to avoid being on the unhappy end of a 109's bullets that most pilots do not do because they're either impatient or do not plan ahead:

Don't engage an enemy fighter unless you have a significant advantage.

Obviously there will be times when you don't have a choice. Minimize those!

When I was flying by myself mostly I took to flying very high (always 16k ft or more) while looking for contacts and usually higher than that (around 20k).

I may not have found as many enemy fighters, but those I did find were far less likely to have an advantage on me. In many more cases than not, I came out the victor.

Then I started flying on comms. Grouping up with others, I would usually take a wingman role and not lead the flight. People like to fly low and fast over to enemy bases. They like to go in at max 8k ft because it's easier to find enemy planes. They see a plane and they engage it. It's like crack cocaine to a junkie on withdrawl. MUST. ATTACK. DOT!

Needless to say, I didn't fare as well flying in those situations. I'm not the greatest pilot out there. I have a hard time seeing those fighters before they see me. Unfortunately, at these altitudes and situations once a fight starts, the enemy had the advantage more often than not.

So to any Spitfire/Hurricane pilot who is frustrated by fast flying fast climbing 109s, I say don't play their game! They WANT you to try and beat them at their game. Don't play it! Fly high. Fly smart. And for the love of all that's holy, pick and choose your engagements with thought. You don't have to dive down on that 109 right away the moment you see him. Observe, think, act.

This is a good post, and highlights a fact that I think others miss quite a lot. One aircraft on its own is worthless. Two aircraft as a pair are effective. That is why most modern tactical documents refer to a pair of aircraft as an "element" i.e. the smallest divisible unit in air combat.

In my 109 and see a lone Spitfire below me? I start rubbing my hands together gleefully because I know that even if I get co-E with him, I can dive for safety.

In my 109 and see a pair of Spitfires below me? I think twice about attacking because I know that they can play the game where every time I dive on one, the other one climbs.

[_79_dev]

~S~

From my experience: it is not plane flying and winning dogfights, it is human pilot who makes decisions ( quick or slow), has situation awareness (more or less of it), shooting skills , and so on and on... Dogfight is war so he wins who make less mistakes... You ask in the post how to fly Spit? Ask Your self a question how do other aircrafts perform and first of all know Your limits. If You want to know how to catch 109 in a climb, grab 109 and check if it's possible and when is it possible. If someone says " FM is overworked because I dove on 109 but could't catch it up" or " Spitfire do his 360 in a blink of eye and I have no chance to run away" that sound for me like some of pilots have not enough imagination and knowledge to fly WWII plane, or has too many bad habits. So You want to know the truth.... grab a plane and take it for the spin, record your flights and analyse mistakes...Lern from other pilots mistakes if possible... Anyway everyone has his own way to fly airplane so rely only on Your own experience as much as You can...

Something to read:

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit1vrs109e.html

and

http://www.av8n.com/how/

~S~

[AKA_Tenn]

seems your starting to get a bit off topic here...

in real life u gotta worry bout a lot more stuff... individual aircraft (not type, but single individual 1 of a kind), because not one plane will be performing the same as any other, due to a mechanic with a hangover, or a badly hammered rivet etc... and you can't be assuming your talking about someone who's average in the 109 against someone whos average in a spit... the only thing you can really say, due to the facts about the physics engine we're working with here is... the 109 climbs better, the spit turns better... so to fly the spit, your job is to force the 109 to turn, not climb with it, and vicea versa with the 109