British FM killing the fun of the game for allied pilots.

[Glider]

Originally Posted by Kurfürst

David, you do have the Spitfire Mark II manual as of summer 1940? What does it say on this topic?

Yes and there is nothing that seems exceptional.

Crumpp highlighted the parts of a Spitfire manual that caused him some concern and I addressed those individually and am more than willing to do the same for you.

Krump
You have also said that there are a number of cases of the Spitfire breaking up in the air and again I ask you to supply some examples. If we have examples we have smething to base the discussion on without them we don't.

[NZtyphoon]

Originally Posted by swift

So what about the temperature issues with the spitfire? It seems that when temperature effects are turned off the spitfire is faster. Is this because when turning the temperature effects off the radiator no longer causes a drag (because it is closed anyway)?

Why does the water and oil not cool down when flying faster (for instance in a dive)?

Does the spit when flown by the books show temperatures and operation times as it should?

How about the speeds and climb that can be achieved?

It should be possible to reduce radiator opening in normal cruise. Is this implemented?

What about the mixture? It seems that when the lever is forward the game takes it as rich mixture.

A good place to start is

Spitfire IIa on auto pilot

posted 2 weeks ago - time= 1:27 and 1:59 show the Spitfire IIa's engine instruments 1:59 RPM = 3,000 Boost = +3 Oil Temp = 90° Coolant = 105°, radiator shutter closed: everything as it should be...

[5./JG27.Farber]

NZtyphoon:

AI uses different Fm and Dm...

Everyone else:

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber

This thread doesnt seem to be getting anywhere, we keep changing direction. We really need several threads - each for its specific problem, polite and respectful discussion and conclusion to present a bug ticket.

Or not... Im out.

[CaptainDoggles]

Laughable.

NZtyphoon and his friends feel personally attacked, so they decide to bring out some 110 documents to "fight back" or "show them" or something.

Talk about emotional investment. It's so blatantly obvious that I really can't help but laugh.

Start a different thread on the 110 if you like. Nobody feels threatened. If the data supports it I will happily lobby 1c for appropriate changes. I suspect that certain people here will continue to lobby for the changes they want (or to prevent the spitfire from being more realistic), regardless of whether or not the data supports them. When they are exposed as having no basis in fact, they will troll, spam and argue until the thread gets locked, just like they did the last time.

It's actually rather sad. This community really is one of the worst communities I've ever had the misfortune of being part of.

[NZtyphoon]

This is from Sydney Camm and the Hurricane describing the difference made when the Merlin changed from 100% glycol to 30% Glycol, 70% H20



the lower operating temperature of the engine on this mix - also used by the Merlin XII - helped TBO and reliability. In theory the CLOD Merlin XII should not be overheating as much as it is right now. I'm not sure about the temperature difference of 70°C as quoted so I'll dig a little more.

[OSSI]

Bf109 FM need fixes:

FM issues

Loss of energy/momentum
Bad climb rates
Incorrect top speeds
Incorrect acceleration.
Need faster Flaps moving out and in
Autopitch dont work correct


Bf110 FM need fixes:

FM issues

Engine overheating
Loss of energy/momentum
Bad climb rates
Incorrect top speeds
Incorrect acceleration
DM too weak
need better turn

Ju88 FM need fixes:

Engine overheating
Loss of energy/momentum
Bad climb rates
Incorrect top speeds
Incorrect acceleration
DM too weak
Need better turn


Ju87 need FM fixes:

Engine overheating
Loss of energy/momentum
Bad climb rates
Incorrect top speeds
Incorrect acceleration
DM too weak

[robtek]

Originally Posted by OSSI

Bf109 FM need fixes:

FM issues

Loss of energy/momentum
Bad climb rates
Incorrect top speeds
Incorrect acceleration.
Need faster Flaps moving out and in
Autopitch dont work correct


Bf110 FM need fixes:

FM issues

Engine overheating
Loss of energy/momentum
Bad climb rates
Incorrect top speeds
Incorrect acceleration
DM too weak
need better turn

Ju88 FM need fixes:

Engine overheating
Loss of energy/momentum
Bad climb rates
Incorrect top speeds
Incorrect acceleration
DM too weak
Need better turn


Ju87 need FM fixes:

Engine overheating
Loss of energy/momentum
Bad climb rates
Incorrect top speeds
Incorrect acceleration
DM too weak

Sorry, but without data which values should have to be corrected how and why this is just a whine post.

[TomcatViP]

@Ossi: there is no loss of "energy momentum" in the 109 or 110 that I know about. IMOHO it's even the contrary with a more friendly behavior modeled to get more fun out of it I believe (109).

Your expectations might be too high.

Of course the S*** is another story but as we can only whisper after her in this place I won't even mention it.


@Typhoon: Your extract mention the Merlin XX. It's up to you to conclude there is a link with the Merlin XII. Wonder if it is that way that you found evidences of the 100 oct being used.

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by NZtyphoon

the lower operating temperature of the engine on this mix - also used by the Merlin XII - helped TBO and reliability. In theory the CLOD Merlin XII should not be overheating as much as it is right now. I'm not sure about the temperature difference of 70°C as quoted so I'll dig a little more.

Pure Glycol has about twice the boiling point of water but only about half the heat capacity (plus its an anti-freeze). So in effect the coolant (and engine!) temperatures are going to be much higher (since the coolant agent can carry away about half the heat), but I reckon it would boil much later. Hence why it is used in a mix with water. It would also explain why the Hurri I and Spit I overheats so fast.

Engine temperatures are a function of coolant capacity, coolant type, coolant circulation capacity and heat transfer capacity of the radiators. The amount of pressurization the cooling system also raises the boiling point.

What was the coolant capacity of the Spit and Hurri Mark Is, how many gallons/liters? Are there any cooling trials available for these aircraft?

[Kurfürst]

Originally Posted by Glider

Yes and there is nothing that seems exceptional.

Crumpp highlighted the parts of a Spitfire manual that caused him some concern and I addressed those individually and am more than willing to do the same for you.

Well the manual highlights that the elevator is so sensitive that the pilot can easily pull enough g-load to exceed the structural limitations and of the aircraft. It isn't so in the sim, no matter how crazy manouveres I tried in the Spit (ie. vertical dives at Vne) I simply couldn't break it.

It's incorrect and the stick/pitch behaviour should be fixed.

Also the aircraft seem to be rolling much faster at high speed than it should - 3 times as fast as I recall.

Personally I think this disharmony between the controls and senstitivity in pitch are one of the most curious ommitments from the Spitfire's FM. Simply to put, it is not flown like a Spitfire, 'with a light fingertip on the elevator and arm wrestling the ailerons' as pilots have put it.

Positive pitch stability for the Spitfire FM in the sim is also confirmed, as opposed to the real life longitudal pitch instability. This is, again, important for the flying experience: the very low stick force per g and slight instability meant that real Spit had to be handled with careful movements on the stick, and with routine aft-and-fore movements on the stick to prevent the aircraft to tighten up itself. I do not think this was particularly dangerous (though the low stick force per g had some safety risks, admitted by the manual), but it was characteristic of the Spitfire's handling.