The Battle of Britain Was The First Defeat For The German Luftwaffe.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by blackmme

Yep sure is. The Luftwaffe's job (according to FD16) was to make an invasion uneccessary (by getting the Brits to the negotiating table, which Hitler expected) or make it possible.

It failed in both, lots of people were killed by bombs, lots of RAF fighters were shot down and the Germans never got close to achieving either aim.

The RAF succeeded in what it had to do. The Luftwaffe failed in what it had to do.

So yes that's a victory.

Is your definition of a victory that for it to be so you can't sustain any damage or casulties?

Regards Mike

I dunno man, it's a combination of facts that makes me think it was a draw:

1) Germany didn't achieve its results as planned, but it didn't give up, it turned its attention to another front.
2) Britain did sustain a lot of damage by the bombing raids, which continued well into 1941.
3) There was no change in terms of territorial dominance (heck, channel islands weren't even freed until the end of the war!), just a war of attrition, with Britain sustaining more of the damage.

[blackmme]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

I dunno man, it's a combination of facts that makes me think it was a draw:

1) Germany didn't achieve its results as planned, but it didn't give up, it turned its attention to another front.
2) Britain did sustain a lot of damage by the bombing raids, which continued well into 1941.
3) There was no change in terms of territorial dominance (heck, channel islands weren't even freed until the end of the war!), just a war of attrition, with Britain sustaining more of the damage.

1. It didn't give up, it just stopped trying... uhuh gotcha....

2. Yes but unless one of those raids had a nuke onboard it wasn't going to change diddly....

3. Yes you are correct there was no change of territorial dominance. Trouble for your argument is that one of the stated aims of one side was to affect a change of territorial dominance and the stated aim of the other was to prevent this!

And yet you think it was a draw.....

Regards Mike

[FFCW_Urizen]

ok, let´s not use the terms victory or defeat or draw. germanys goal was to force gb to the negotiation table or destroy gb air force to the point, that an invasion can be considered. since neither of those two goals were achieved, i call that a big failure at least. whereas england reached their goal, preventing air superiorty of lw, which i´d call a success.

though i can understand, why u say it´s a draw stern, with the reasons you have given, i on the other hand think it is still a defeat. yes they delayed their plans and moved onto another frontline, but on the other hand, would they have done the same, if "Operation Seelöwe" were successful? what if hitler used this failure as an excuse, not to lose his face? yes, it is highly speculative, but we didn´t live at that time, we only know, what historians found. but even a historian doesn´t know, what went on in the individuals head. we are talking about the us, germany, france and so forth, but we are not taking into consideration the personality of their leaders.

so long uri

PS: sorry, but since english is not my native tongue, my ideas and opinions are not as eloquently put as they should have been.

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by blackmme

1. It didn't give up, it just stopped trying... uhuh gotcha....

2. Yes but unless one of those raids had a nuke onboard it wasn't going to change diddly....

3. Yes you are correct there was no change of territorial dominance. Trouble for your argument is that one of the stated aims of one side was to affect a change of territorial dominance and the stated aim of the other was to prevent this!

And yet you think it was a draw.....

Regards Mike

Mike, it's not the first time I say this (funnily enough it's always with Britons): I'm afraid we will have to agree on disagreeing over this matter.

Uh, since we're on it and since I provided some examples of what I reckon successful achievements of the UK, if anything to show I'm not following some personal crazy agenda of a discrediting campaign against GB, can you please give me some examples of historical, social etc.. events that you reckon Great Britain is guilty or should be ashamed/sorry for?

[blackmme]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

Mike, it's not the first time I say this (funnily enough it's always with Britons): I'm afraid we will have to agree on disagreeing over this matter.

Uh, since we're on it and since I provided some examples that show me how unbiased I am in the judgement of Great Britain, can you please give me some examples of historical, social etc.. events that you reckon Great Britain is guilty or should be ashamed of?

A.

On your first point, I have (had) three German grandparents and one British. I don't consider myself a) your typical brit b) prejudiced.

As to your second point what on earth does that have to do with anything?! Why are we now 'judging' Great Britain?
To be honest Stern you are coming over as having an 'issue' (unspecified) with the British.

Regards Mike

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by blackmme

On your first point, I have (had) three German grandparents and one British. I don't consider myself a) your typical brit b) prejudiced.

As to your second point what on earth does that have to do with anything?! Why are we now 'judging' Great Britain?
To be honest Stern you are coming over as having an 'issue' (unspecified) with the British.

Regards Mike

well, I've been questioned in this thread for being biased and anti-British just cos I'm saying that the common perception of the Battle of Britain as a victory for Britain is conceptually wrong.

So as much as I had to show my unbiased attitude, I'm expecting others to do the same. The fact that you have 3 German grandparents doesn't add much to the equation.

[Talisman]

I find it interesting that this was mostly an air battle, rather than the usual sea, land or combination of all 3. I am not sure how often that has happened before or since, or whether the Battle of Britain was the longest lasting battle in the air that there has been. Lots of other battles have involved air power in association with sea and land forces, but this battle seems to have been more about one air power vs another air power in a trial of strength and will.

Happy landings,

[winny]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

Great Britain achieved its goal when Germany surrendered.

So by your reckoning Stalingrad wasn't a defeat for the German Army? Mereley a setback? Battles are fought over objectives. Surley? There is a difference between a Battle and a War. Winning this particular battle enabled the UK to stay in the war, Hitler wanted the UK out of the war. How's that not a victory?

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

Guys, how can you possibly not see that after fighting for months over the Channel, the RAF paid a HUGE price in terms of aeroplanes and above all pilots, and so did Germany, but the Luftwaffe had its forces in Africa, Greece, Russia, Norway and mainland Europe? How can that be a defeat? It was a large scale skirmish, which produced almost equal losses and became relevant only when the USA joined and used England as a massive aircraft and troop carrier.

It was a defeat in the BoB. You don't measure numbers, you measure objectives. The LW's objective was clear, destroy Fighter Command. They couldn't. Using the 'nobody won because there were other forces in other parts of the world' is irrelevant. Whatever the encounter was, it was won by the RAF.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

That I completely agree with. And I'm afraid that this "island mentality" is confusing the judgement of you guys, again I'm not expecting this thing to be understood by the common people, but people like you, who have an interest in aviation and history can't talk about this in terms of victory and defeat.

It's Ironic that the Island Mentality is used against us, we're an island and it was that mentality which meant that instead of just rolling over, as many other countries did, we stood our ground. I'm wary of using the 'we' because I know that it wasn't me, it was my Grandparents, however by us having and using that mentality, you have the freedom to criticise it.. Such is life..


Was it a Battle, a campaign, a skirmish? That's arguing over nomanclature.
Nothing to do with the result.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

So what do you make of Pearl Harbour? Was that a Japanese victory? It was a part of a larger conflict.

Look, if you can't tell the difference between an attack (over 1 day) and a Battle then there's no point arguning this. Pearl harbour was attacked. It triggered the war in the Pacific, in which there were many battles. As far as the attack went it was mainly unsuccessful. Going by objective.

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

I'm not ignoring that, the German high command took wrong decisions constantly after Dunkirk, but this doesn't mean that they thought they were doing the right thing.

I appreciate the fact you want to keep it civil, and I hope you see I have the same intentions.

The RAF Fighter Command was put in front of an extremely steep learning curve, truth is that the RAF flew and fought with territorial advantage and had to employ only figthers, not bombers or other complex aircraft.

The opposition they put up against the Germans was exemplar, but in some phases desperate. Still their determination together with the ineptitude of the German command meant that they could put up a fight with inferior machines and still be able to limit damage.

In some way they were given a task somehow simpler than the German one: they knew what what they were defending, the Germans didn't really know what they were attacking.

I agree with all of that.

[blackmme]

Originally Posted by Sternjaeger II

well, I've been questioned in this thread for being biased and anti-British just cos I'm saying that the common perception of the Battle of Britain as a victory for Britain is conceptually wrong.

So as much as I had to show my unbiased attitude, I'm expecting others to do the same. The fact that you have 3 German grandparents doesn't add much to the equation.

No Stern to be honest I think you are questioned about being 'anti british' because you come over as being a bit 'anti british' not because of your views on the Battle of Britain (but thats just my opinion and doesn't mean you are or indeed of course that your views are wrong).

One example is being asked to come up with a list of times Britain has been in the wrong through history. Its not relevent to either my contribution to this discussion or the subject at hand.

As far as I am concerned prior to your previous I have thoroughly enjoyed our very civil discussion. As we both clearly have an interest in Flight Sim's and History I think there is much more that unites than divides us and thats good enough for me.

(edited to add 'a bit' the original was far too harsh and rude!)

Regards Mike

[Sternjaeger II]

Originally Posted by blackmme

No Stern to be honest I think you are questioned about being 'anti british' because you come over as being a bit 'anti british' not because of your views on the Battle of Britain (but thats just my opinion and doesn't mean you are or indeed of course that your views are wrong).

I have no interest in being anti-British, I wouldn't live here if I was.
On the other hand I am a HUGE fan of fairness, and never liked when governments use propaganda to alter the perception of reality.

One example is being asked to come up with a list of times Britain has been in the wrong through history. Its not relevent to either my contribution to this discussion or the subject at hand.

I had no problem in doing it, I don't see why you have problems with it, please indulge me..

As far as I am concerned prior to your previous I have thoroughly enjoyed our very civil discussion. As we both clearly have an interest in Flight Sim's and History I think there is much more that unites than divides us and thats good enough for me.

(edited to add 'a bit' the original was far too harsh and rude!)

Regards Mike

Fair enough, and you have all my respect for this.