So, about that little red light...

[Rama]

Old debate comming up again...

Originally Posted by zapatista

btw, this is a problem in il2 when using the normal and correct FoV setting for your monitor size, dont compare it with what you see on a zoomed view setting which artificially magnifies what you see.

Wrong. The "max Zoom" is a 30° FOV which actually correspond approximativelly to the FOV you have to your screen if your head is at a "normal distance" of it.
The problem in all computer game is that you can't have at the same time a vision of the object size corresponding to the cone of view in which you see your monitor AND an standard "human" 160° FOV.... for this you would need a hemispheric screen around you, and not a standard monitor...
So if you have to compare object spotting in IL2 and in reality.. you HAVE to do it at 30° FOV (maximum zoom).

BTW IL2 does quite a good job with the different FOV to allow you to have a peripheral vision and a "normal" vision in a reduced angle (30° FOV) with an almost instant switch between the 2.

you have the exact same problem in il2 when trying to spot tanks/trucks on a road or in a field, in real life you can still see them from 1500 meters, and in il2 you need to be at 300 or 400 meters. if you ever fly VFR in real aircraft just look at the scenery below you and compare at what altitudes you can still spot individual cars/trucks etc.. then compare it again to what you can see in il2. in il2 there is a MAJOR problem with object visibility, its down to about 30% to what it should be.

I do often fly VFR between 500ft AGL and 3000ft AGL and find that IL2 does quite a good job for ground object spotting at these altitudes (again with the 30° FOV).... In real when the landscape is highly contrasted, it's even more difficult to spot such objets sometimes.
At 4500 ft AGL in real (corresponding to your 1500m), It isn't hard to spot a truck or even a car on a black asphalted road.... it is much harder (and some times impossible) to spot the same vehicles (or an agriculture engine for exemple) in the middle of a standard agriculture landscape (at least where I fly, with lanscape of small rolling hills, with a mosaic of small culture fields and woods/hedges, etc...)

Seems we don't have the same IRL experience.
I see that in this tread, others have the same IRL experience as I have.

[Flyby]

So, can we spot a climbing flight of Hurricanes at 1500 meters distance in IL2? How about SoW_BoB? Sorry I can't test this in IL2 at the moment. I'm using the wife's pc until I build a new rig. Maybe someone can make a track spotting (or not) a climbing flight of Hurricanes over the channel, and post it to Youtube? Typically, the perspective from the Emil would be "up-Sun" from the Hurricanes!
Flyby out

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by Rama

Old debate comming up again...

Wrong. The "max Zoom" is a 30° FOV which actually correspond approximativelly to the FOV you have to your screen if your head is at a "normal distance" of it........
So if you have to compare object spotting in IL2 and in reality.. you HAVE to do it at 30° FOV (maximum zoom).....

completely wrong, unless you are using a 14' monitor from the 1980's, use large magnification glasses the size of vodka glasses and are sitting with your nose touching the screen.

you dont seem to understand how modern video display technology works, or how to use it correctly according to the manufacturers specifications (and complying to health and safety regulations to protect your eye sight).

to keep things simple for now, lets presume we are all using lcd pc monitors on our computer desks, since that is now the case for most gamers in developed countries. (projector displays, large plasma tv's, and CRT monitors have somewhat different characteristics and different rules apply, hence they are best viewed from different distances)

for modern pc lcd monitors, there is basically only one "correct viewing distance" ! that distance is determined by the font size of the OS/software, the size of the pixels the display uses, and the display resolution.

for reading text default font sizes are similar across OS's and are roughly 30% larger then what you see in print (for normal printed text in books and literature). because the monitor is further from your eyes, to your brain the viewing size of the text fonts remains similar. there can also be a slight difference in pixel sizes for different monitor which can slightly change this for normal desktop use, but at 0.05 mm difference per pixel for simplicity sake we'll skip that part for now to (roughly varying btw 0.25 and 0.30 mm).

for viewing video or grafix the best viewing distance is roughly similar to that, because if you sit to close the image pixilates and becomes blocky ( you can see the individual pixel blocks and the lines between them), and if you sit to far away you loose the detail of the image . the ball park correct viewing distance for lcd pc monitors is roughly 60 cm, with about a 10 cm variation depending on personal preference or accuracy of vision. the resolution the display is set to also matters, with high definition video using smaller pixel blocks so you can sit a little closer, and for lower resolution video users having to sit a little further away (so the displayed video "block" blend in together more). but for now we'll presume the lcd pc monitors we are using are set at their native resolution, and since pixel sizes in those lcd monitors are fairly constant, those with higher resolution monitors basically have larger monitors with more pixels on the larger display surface, but sit at similar distances.

so to keep a long story short, lcd pc monitors DO have a "correct viewing distance", and a small monitor will give you a smaller field of view in il2, and a larger (wider) monitor will give you a wider Field of View. therefore whatever lcd monitor size you have on your desk, there will only be ONE correct FoV setting in il2 that will show you in game objects (trucks, planes, buildings, etc..) at their correct sizes (it is easy to calculate that "correct FoV setting" for your monitor size with a simple formula). if you set a more narrow field of view in il2 on that same monitor you now get increased tunnel vision and those objects you look at will be artificially magnified, and if you set a wider field of view your peripheral vision might increase but the objects will now shrink in size (which means that to your visual cortex they will look further away). there are some incorrect sizes modeled for some in game objects in il2, like some of the buildings, but we'll skip that part for now to.

since il2 is promoting itself as a "simulation" and not an arcade game, you have to assume that what we see on our monitors in the game will be intended to SIMULATE what you'd see from a ww2 cockpit in real life, which means that 90% of the time most of us would fly with the "correct FoV" for our monitor size (so we can see all in-game objects correctly displayed in their right sizes and relative size ratios). since we have the limitation of sitting in our living rooms behind a computer monitor, there are some features added to the game to reduce those limitations, so you can briefly switch to a wider FoV to increase your situational awareness in a dogfight for ex, or you can briefly zoom into an object to get a more detailed view (aiming at a specific part of a slow moving bomber for ex), but you dont use either of those views to permanently fly in ! if you did that it would be very disorienting, either you have constant tunnel vision on a narrow 30 FoV, or on the 90 FoV setting your wider peripheral vission is being compressed into a display surface that is to small and everything therefore reduces in size and you are now looking at midgets in a lilyputter world and hunt for scale model toy aircraft in the virtual sky . neither of those views is one you'd want to fly in constantly for those exact reasons.

Originally Posted by Rama

BTW IL2 does quite a good job with the different FOV to allow you to have a peripheral vision and a "normal" vision in a reduced angle (30° FOV) with an almost instant switch between the 2.

you are holding the donkey by the wrong end. you'r basically saying you are mainly flying in the artificially magnified 30 FoV view most of the time in il2 and seem to think that is normal, sorry it aint.

lets do some basic figures, if for ex you are using a 24' lcd and are sitting at roughly 60 cm from it, then your normal "correct FoV" setting should be 46.9 in il2 (46.9 degrees of your visual field is now occupied by the 52 cm wide screen in front of you, placed at 60 cm). you'd therefore have to chose either the 45 or 50 FoV to see objects in their correct sizes in this sim, both of which are significantly larger then the 30 you are claiming is the right setting.

so if you claim now that you can only see objects correctly in il2 with a 30 FoV setting, compared to your real life experience, then either everything in il2 is modeled to small, or when using the right "correct FoV" setting (45 or 50) for your monitor size you'd have to agree that objects are harder to see from the same distance compared to real life ! you cant have it both ways, its one or the other.

Originally Posted by Rama

The problem in all computer game is that you can't have at the same time a vision of the object size corresponding to the cone of view in which you see your monitor AND an standard "human" 160° FOV.... for this you would need a hemispheric screen around you, and not a standard monitor...

you have some convoluted thought processes going on in your head, get your perspective right from the start of your logic string. first, set your FoV correct for the display size and display technology you are using, so you see objects in their correct sizes, after that you can use additional monitors on either side to increase your peripheral vision in the game (il2 allows the use of multiple monitors). instead of that you are trying to tell me that while using your single 52 cm wide monitor you can magically set it to an artificially zoomed view and see objects "correctly in size" while still maintaining the peripheral vision of a 45 or 50 FoV setting, thats impossible with the physical laws of the universe we now live in.

so this time set your monitor to the correct view setting (45 or 50 for a 24' for ex), then fly at 1500 meters altitude in il2 and observe how well you can see a tank in a field, trucks on a road, or an aircraft parked on a grass strip etc.. then compare this to looking down from a real aircraft at 1500 m at various similar objects in the real world, there is a MAJOR difference to what you can see in real life compared to the difficulties we have in il2 (for this i am presuming you have normal 20/20 vision).

and as another example why dont you try and use that 30 FoV you claim is "normal" and do some formation flying in il2, its impossible. try and keep 100 m separation to the lead aircraft on your 10 or 2 o'clock position for ex, with a 30 FoV setting your vision is jumping about so much its impossible to keep an eye on him. similarly if you mainly use the 30 FoV for combat flying and have to scan the skies around you, its impossible because the sky sections you see are so small and you are completely vulnerable.

[Sturm_Williger]

Originally Posted by zapatista

i'd be more worried about Oleg getting the visibility for distant aircraft right, rather then the fuel gauge warning light.

right now in il2 it is impossible to see that "climbing flight of Huricanes" below you unless you stick a telescope with tunnel vision out of your cockpit and slowly scan every yard of space below you.

I'm not so worried about the "climbing flight of Hurricanes" being invisible so much as I worry about the Hurricane/Spitfire I'm 250m behind just plain vanishing against the ground.

If Oleg can fix that, I'll be a happy camper.

[JG52Uther]

Originally Posted by 99th_Flyby

High over southern England, in the area of the London docks, you lead a flight of Emils, and see a climbing flight of Huricanes. Just as you're about to signal your flight to attack, suddenly a little red light comes on in your cockpit...
Sorry guys. Just want to know how much fuel the Emil has left when that little read light comes on. Perhaps more to the point, how many more minutes can the Emil stay in the air? I'm sure this question has been answered before, somewhere. But is it accurately modeled in SoW?
thanks,
Flyby out

First post

[robtek]

@JG52Uther

didn´t you know that one only quotes whats convenient for his cause????

[zapatista]

Originally Posted by JG52Uther

First post

so you cant be bothered reading the actual thread, but will make multiple off topic posts in it to complain you dont like what the OP is discussing ?

Originally Posted by 99th_Flyby

So, can we spot a climbing flight of Hurricanes at 1500 meters distance in IL2? How about SoW_BoB? Sorry I can't test this in IL2 at the moment. I'm using the wife's pc until I build a new rig. Maybe someone can make a track spotting (or not) a climbing flight of Hurricanes over the channel, and post it to Youtube? Typically, the perspective from the Emil would be "up-Sun" from the Hurricanes!
Flyby out

[JG52Uther]

I quoted the OPs first post on the first page.Its also the title of the thread.Twist it how you like.