Why no E4s

[Richie]

Originally Posted by MajorBoris

If all things are equal when two planes meet, there respective performance will favor the superior flight model but thats a fight that shouldnt be picked imho.

Back on topic: The short answer to why certain plane's are not in server1, because to many people fight about it.

Was anyone here flying in Warclouds WF during the 109 G2 Spitfire Mk. IX 25 lb boost debocal? What a hoot that was and I was tearing my hair out all the way threw it. I guess each side thought the others aeroplane was too good. I wanted an F2,F4 or G2 to fly. The servers solution was make it a 1944 server witch almost everyone liked but no Spitfire Mk IX 25 lb boost and no dogfight 109s witch totally screwed me. I got lost and went to Spits VS 109s witch again imo was always the best server for full real play for IL-2 on the Hyperlobby.

[ATAG_Snapper]

Originally Posted by CaptainDoggles

Hey listen, sorry you took it as an insult.

But I'm not going to retract the statement. I find it hypocritical to understate the advantages that the spit 2a has over the 109s, while in the same breath overstate the advantages that the 109s have over the Spit 1a and Hurri, and to neglect entirely the advantages that the Hurri and Spit 1a have over the 109s.

If you're interested in actually addressing the facts, then great.

Should the E-3 be banned? It climbs better than the E-4.

What will happen when Blue gets the Fw 190 and Red again has a turn advantage but not a speed or firepower advantage?

Fair enough. We're all grown men here.

As I see it right now with the current FM's, if any model of 109 meets a Spit I/Ia or Hurricane DH5-20/Rotol in a 1 v 1 with both pilots having equal ability; the 109 will win because it can hold the initiative in the fight. It will climb above its quarry, the Red fighter will stall first if it tries to match it. The 109 can b & z at will, the Red fighter can only turn to avoid the firing pass. It can't outrun or outdive the 109, it's only a matter of time when the 109, diving out of the sun, will hit the Red fighter and win the fight. No 109 pilot in his right mind will engage a Red fighter in a turn & burn fight. Why would he? He just climbs out of reach, then picks his moment to descend and dispatch the RAF fighter turning below. The best the RAF fighter can do is dodge the tracers best he can until the 109 runs out of ammo -- which takes a lot longer than it does for a Spit or Hurri to run out.

Obviously, the Spitfire IIa is very capable of seizing the initiative in a 1 v 1, again assuming both pilots are of equal ability. I've recently done some flight test comparisons of the IIa vs the 1a, Rotol, and DH-520 in full throttle climbs to 10,000 feet and also some energy-loss comparos executing Immelman turns in the IIa, Ia, and Rotol. I posted the results over at the ATAG Forum, including video clips of the Immelman tests. Jeffrey Quill I ain't, but as expected the IIa outperformed the other models decisively, especially in the full throttle climbs. We were surprised (Red and Blue) that there was a such a large loss of energy in the IIa doing the Immelman -- on par with the Rotol. The conclusion was that the IIa is good, but its wings aren't coated in teflon. A good 109 pilot can defeat a mediocre IIa pilot, just as a good Ia pilot can defeat a mediocre 109 pilot in a 1 v 1 encounter.

What the Red pilots see in the IIa is "Finally, we have a fighter that can turn the tables". So many times a Red pilot is in a 1 v 1 co-energy encounter, only to have the 109 raise its nose, climb hard away, then hammerhead in the sun and dive back down with guns blazing. When Blue pilots respond by saying "Don't play into the 109's game; disengage, grab altitude yourself, then come back and do it to the 109". To which the Red pilots reply, "No....give us Spitfire IIa's and YOU disengage, grab some alt, and come back at us".

And so it goes.

But as MajorBorris pointed out to Ritchie earlier in this thread, the arguing will never end, it will just get more acrimonius. Taking out the E4 and IIa has seemed to even things up a bit. The Rotol, if flown well, is a good opponent to all models of the 109, the Ia struggles a bit. I'm aware that the auto-pitch on the E4 is over-hyped and that experten 109 pilots probably stick with manual pitch control for top performance. The perception on the Red side, rightly or wrongly, is that the auto-pitch turns even noob Blue pilots into aces overnight. I'm sure they wish that were true! Perhaps a greater concern was that the E4 uber-cannon could knock down a Blenheim before the Blennie had a chance to line up its target.

Sorry for the wall of words here. As with everyone, waiting on the patch to see what that brings us.

Past differences aside, good flying and look foward to seeing you over the Channel.

Snapper

[CaptainDoggles]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper

As I see it right now with the current FM's, if any model of 109 meets a Spit I/Ia or Hurricane DH5-20/Rotol in a 1 v 1 with both pilots having equal ability; the 109 will win because it can hold the initiative in the fight.

I don't believe this to be true at all. If both pilots are of equal skill, and the Hurri pilot goes for angles while the 109 pilot goes for energy, it ought to be a stalemate every time, ultimately boiling down to who makes a mistake first. As long as the Hurri has speed and the pilot has reasonable tactical knowledge, the pilot can deny a guns-tracking solution to his opponent in the 109.

It will climb above its quarry, the Red fighter will stall first if it tries to match it. The 109 can b & z at will, the Red fighter can only turn to avoid the firing pass. It can't outrun or outdive the 109, it's only a matter of time when the 109, diving out of the sun, will hit the Red fighter and win the fight. No 109 pilot in his right mind will engage a Red fighter in a turn & burn fight.

Let me turn that around on you. Why would sane Hurricane pilots engage a 109 in an energy fight? Note that I am not advocating racing around the sky hauling back on the pole as hard as possible all the time. But angles tactics are perfectly valid if the situation is appropriate. I can elaborate if anyone likes, but I would encourage those who are interested to pick up a copy of Shaw's book Fighter Combat.

So many times a Red pilot is in a 1 v 1 co-energy encounter, only to have the 109 raise its nose, climb hard away, then hammerhead in the sun and dive back down with guns blazing.

Well first of all, from Co-E if a 109 tries to sustained-climb away he's going to get his plane shot out from under him. It's happened to me plenty of times where I've misjudged the energy states, found out the Hurri had more spank than anticipated, and he's got enough to pull the nose up and hit me. Secondly, the 109 doesn't climb that much better than the Hurri. It takes a good long while to build enough vertical separation to split-S down onto him. Thirdly, 109s are not hammerheading around on top of people when they're coming out of a 240 km/h climb. You hammerhead at the top of a zoom climb, not a sustained climb, and trying to out-zoom a 109E in a Hurri would be like trying to out-zoom a P-47 in a Spitfire. I think you and I both know this is not the way to attack a 109 in clod. Nor is trying to chase him upward in a spiral climb, which is what I see time and again online.

When Blue pilots respond by saying "Don't play into the 109's game; disengage, grab altitude yourself, then come back and do it to the 109". To which the Red pilots reply, "No....give us Spitfire IIa's and YOU disengage, grab some alt, and come back at us".

Here's where it falls apart. 109 vs Hurri is not the same situation as 109 vs Spit2. The Hurri has a performance advantage over the 109 (turn). The 109 has no performance advantages over the Spit2. If you watch (for example) Mr.X's videos you can see that the negative-G cutout is really no concern at all: he pushes the nose forward all the time to get the shot.

The Rotol, if flown well, is a good opponent to all models of the 109, the Ia struggles a bit.

I agree.

I'm aware that the auto-pitch on the E4 is over-hyped and that experten 109 pilots probably stick with manual pitch control for top performance.

I'm sure some do. I myself appreciate the E4 mostly for the decreased pilot workload and am willing to take the performance hit if it means I can spend a little bit more time checking 6 and a little less time fiddling with prop pitch. It's a colossal pain in the butt, even compared to the Rotol because the pitch mechanism is so slow (variable pitch prop vs constant speed prop). I find the Rotol CSP mechanism to be superior, even compared to the E4.

The perception on the Red side, rightly or wrongly, is that the auto-pitch turns even noob Blue pilots into aces overnight. I'm sure they wish that were true! Perhaps a greater concern was that the E4 uber-cannon could knock down a Blenheim before the Blennie had a chance to line up its target.

I think that if those pilots were to fly E4s, they'd soon discover that loading armor-piercing bullets into the MG-17 nose guns is vastly superior to Minegeschoss shells when it comes to taking down bombers. This isn't 1946 and we aren't slinging Mk 108 shells around.

I posted about this a few months back on simhq; if I'm shooting well, it takes only 150 or so rounds of MG-17 to wreck an engine on the Blenheim or the Wellington, which makes the AI bail out and probably renders the aircraft ineffective to a human pilot. No need for cannons at all: I save those for fighters.

Past differences aside, good flying and look foward to seeing you over the Channel.

Likewise. S~

[Valec]

Originally Posted by ATAG_Snapper

Fair enough. We're all grown men here.

As I see it right now with the current FM's, if any model of 109 meets a Spit I/Ia or Hurricane DH5-20/Rotol in a 1 v 1 with both pilots having equal ability; the 109 will win because it can hold the initiative in the fight. It will climb above its quarry, the Red fighter will stall first if it tries to match it. The 109 can b & z at will, the Red fighter can only turn to avoid the firing pass. It can't outrun or outdive the 109, it's only a matter of time when the 109, diving out of the sun, will hit the Red fighter and win the fight. No 109 pilot in his right mind will engage a Red fighter in a turn & burn fight. Why would he? He just climbs out of reach, then picks his moment to descend and dispatch the RAF fighter turning below. The best the RAF fighter can do is dodge the tracers best he can until the 109 runs out of ammo -- which takes a lot longer than it does for a Spit or Hurri to run out.

Obviously, the Spitfire IIa is very capable of seizing the initiative in a 1 v 1, again assuming both pilots are of equal ability. I've recently done some flight test comparisons of the IIa vs the 1a, Rotol, and DH-520 in full throttle climbs to 10,000 feet and also some energy-loss comparos executing Immelman turns in the IIa, Ia, and Rotol. I posted the results over at the ATAG Forum, including video clips of the Immelman tests. Jeffrey Quill I ain't, but as expected the IIa outperformed the other models decisively, especially in the full throttle climbs. We were surprised (Red and Blue) that there was a such a large loss of energy in the IIa doing the Immelman -- on par with the Rotol. The conclusion was that the IIa is good, but its wings aren't coated in teflon. A good 109 pilot can defeat a mediocre IIa pilot, just as a good Ia pilot can defeat a mediocre 109 pilot in a 1 v 1 encounter.

What the Red pilots see in the IIa is "Finally, we have a fighter that can turn the tables". So many times a Red pilot is in a 1 v 1 co-energy encounter, only to have the 109 raise its nose, climb hard away, then hammerhead in the sun and dive back down with guns blazing. When Blue pilots respond by saying "Don't play into the 109's game; disengage, grab altitude yourself, then come back and do it to the 109". To which the Red pilots reply, "No....give us Spitfire IIa's and YOU disengage, grab some alt, and come back at us".

And so it goes.

But as MajorBorris pointed out to Ritchie earlier in this thread, the arguing will never end, it will just get more acrimonius. Taking out the E4 and IIa has seemed to even things up a bit. The Rotol, if flown well, is a good opponent to all models of the 109, the Ia struggles a bit. I'm aware that the auto-pitch on the E4 is over-hyped and that experten 109 pilots probably stick with manual pitch control for top performance. The perception on the Red side, rightly or wrongly, is that the auto-pitch turns even noob Blue pilots into aces overnight. I'm sure they wish that were true! Perhaps a greater concern was that the E4 uber-cannon could knock down a Blenheim before the Blennie had a chance to line up its target.

Sorry for the wall of words here. As with everyone, waiting on the patch to see what that brings us.

Past differences aside, good flying and look foward to seeing you over the Channel.

Snapper

+1

[MoGas]

The fact is, for RED you just need more expierenced flyers to be happy. You need to know exactly what you are doing in a SpitI-Ia or any Hurrican, you simply need "TEAMPLAY". Single faults in flying, is causing the death. The story about ALT, "Spitys should climb" is good, but BLUE knows it already, and they dont wanna climb to 18.000ft for a fight, why would they, they stay on the 10.000ft.....That means, 3-4 turns with a good 109 guy, you gona die, the advantage is high for a 109. If the 109 would make a mistake, to get in the turn fight, he just dives away, outruns you, and finally outclimbs you again, if you wanna follow him.....good night lol......But true is, the early 109 vs Spit fights over France are been very bad for the RAF, they did what the wanted with them...

Without SpitII, the 109 is the best plane, and it is no wonder for me, that alot BLUE guys, wanna keep it that way. But the question for me is, is this what you want, I mean after many hours flying online, you reach a level of skill, the current Spitfires I-Ia are not a match in the right conditions (and you tell what condition you want as BLUE flyer).

But on the other hand, you get angry, RED flyers with SpitII`s if aviable on the server, who got good skill, learned the game online on the hard way with the poor SpitI-Ia....

The nightmare comes alive for BLUE.....

So in this case, a endless topic, as said above. But we need to find the right way, that means, fixed FM`s by Luthier, because, one day, my FW 190 will arrive, and I wanna fly it too, if you know what I mean.....lol

BTW, Snapper, I like youre tests with the Spity`s what you have posted on the ATAG forum...

[5./JG27.Farber]

.

[335th_GRAthos]

Originally Posted by 5./JG27.Farber

.

+1 to the point

[talk is silver, silence is gold]



~S~

[Osprey]

Originally Posted by jojovtx

But the E4 is same as ALL other 109 variants currently in game.

If that's the case then why complain?

[jojovtx]

Originally Posted by Osprey

If that's the case then why complain?

Because I like the simplicity of the auto prop and the m-geshoss. Has no impact on aircraft FM. Simply put.

The spit2a is pulled because of ahistorical FM matchup due to 1C fudging this game up. So it gets pulled. Fine and please bring it back as soon as 1C get's the FM stuff right. The E4 get's pulled because......the spit2a got pulled?

How does that make sense. The E4 flies within the same FM envelope as all other 109 FM. So if the e4 get's pulled because the spit2a get's pulled but this is all about FM comparion then where is the correlation? Thus the spit2a vs 109e4 argument is moot as the debate then becomes apple vs orange instead of apple vs apple.

[VO101_Tom]

Originally Posted by Osprey

If that's the case then why complain?

Exactly that's why. Why should you pick out the E-4 with the SpitIIa together? FM and Handling? The FM same as other 109, the handling same simple as the RAF planes. The real reason is the armament, but it's so pathetic, that have to lie something different.