Ethics of pilots fighting for the sides in WWII

[Ltbear]

Originally Posted by swiss

Indeed, just checked Wiki: Greece spend 2.8% of it's GNI for their armed forces.

But, why?

Well....i give a few pointers, but wount go into it....

Cyprus and if you look at a map, look east of greece, that is the main reson and have been like that since...wowser....many many many many many years......

Exept the shootings and the "official war" the situation between greece and the "land far east" is almost with the same tensions as north korea and south korea...

[Oktoberfest]

Well, as John Lennon said, Imagine...

I think I'm happy to live in a peaceful Europe, with friends from Germany, Belgium, Netherlands, Croatia, Poland, England, Ireland, etc... all joining in a virtual sky to fight with and against, but where the end of the fight is usually join the girlfriend and not sleeping on a muddy field, half frozen with shells incoming...

What was good in WW2 ? Nations grew adult and started talking together. Peace was paid at the cost of millions of lives, and just because those people allowed me to have friends in Europe and live in peace, I have the deepest respect for them.

[Splitter]

Blackdog,

There are problems with your comparisons to today, but not flaming.

Most of the soldiers fighting today in the Middle East are very well informed and very well educated compared to the men fighting in WWII. They are making informed decisions...and by in large they want to stay and finish the job.

Perhaps they have seen enough of the world to understand the dangers out there better than people sitting at home? A lot of the young men who come home find it very hard to connect with people their own age who did not go into the service.

You theorize that a higher incidence of PTSD and related disorders are somehow connected to morally "suspect" wars. I would theorize that the higher incidence of some of these disorders is from enemy tactics. In WWII, the enemy wore a uniform. In later conflicts, the enemy tried to blend in with the population and the soldiers were constantly "on guard".

Studies I read back in the day were pretty clear that every soldier is subject to some form of battle fatigue and every soldier will begin to suffer the effects if left in combat for two weeks. In many wars today, there is no real safe haven, the civilians are potential threats, and tours have been extended.

I can only speak for American soldiers and I know or have met many. They are probably the most adamant segment of our society when it comes to seeing the present day wars through to a successful conclusion.

They understand, probably better than most others, who we are fighting and what we are fighting for. And they say we need to fight. That should tell us something.

Like I said in other posts, separate the soldier from the leadership. You can say that the wars are morally suspect (I know you a bit from your postings and know that you still honor the solders), that's a comment on the leadership in various countries. Fine, that's your opinion and obviously not what we are discussing here.

But you cannot say that the soldiers are suffering from some sort of moral dilemma and that is somehow causing them problems. Far from it, they are motivated and committed to the cause.

Come to one of our wounded warrior shoots (you get the flight, I'll pick up the lodging ). Not only will you get your hands on some pretty cool hardware, but you will see some soldiers who want nothing more than to get back out there with their unit. They may be missing legs, arms, an eye, whatever....even after all of that they want to go back and fight. Yes, it is enough to bring a grown man to tears when you see it.

There is not much of a moral debate going on among the Armed Forces. We may be a bit divided at home, but the people out defending us are pretty united in their commitment.

Wars are terrible and some more than others. I think of the fighter pilots in WWII and can see why they were maybe a bit different than the common ground soldier. The pilots usually did have something of a safe haven at their base. They "usually" did not actually see the people they killed. There seemed to be a more "gentlemanly" aspect to the pilots, a mutual respect. In many cases at least.

Maybe that makes it easier to fly for both sides in a sim?

Then I think about the German pilots and what they went through. I am not minimizing any Allied service, but German pilots could not complete a tour and go home or be re-assigned. They flew until the war ended, they died, or they were wounded too badly to fly. There was no "end in sight" for the German pilots. That must have been very taxing indeed....a lot of them ran up against the odds at some point maybe hundreds of missions into their career. Staggering to think about.

Splitter

[Richie]

Gunther Rall was hounded by the Gestapo many times because his wife was helping Jews. Nothing was done however because he was such an asset. One of the commanders of a JG 53 unit was married to a Jewish girl, Goring had them all put this stupid red band of same around the nose of their 109s, you can see it in the SOW video. Gordon Gallob was a hated Jadgeschwader leader because he was such a fanatic. He followed rules to the letter and all he did was get many fighter pilots killed. The big joke is his father was Scotish. He probably wanted to over prove himself to the brass. In here anytime you say positive things about a German you'll get blasted witch is understandable but theirs some that were very good men, Trautloft, Galland, Rall, Molders, Barkhorn, Steinhoff, Spoden, Neumann. They were just fighting for they bad side. Any smart thinking man would realize that the leader of his country is crazy when men are eating the horses and he's saying we are going win Russia. You keep fighting with your friends and for your country.

[SlipBall]

Originally Posted by Blackdog_kt

At the very least, in order to even sympathize with these two lines of thought when there is no direct danger to the home grounds

I feel your whole post was a bit naive on human behavior. Which also begs the question why you enjoy a war simulating game. America cannot just standby, and wait for another tower to be brought down.

[Flying Pencil]

Originally Posted by Avimimus

(in reference to airmen flying for Nazi Germany)

But it doesn't change the fact that a lot of good people and innocents were killed by German pilots fighting the war. It also doesn't change the fact that they were fighting on behalf of a nation which had a horrible and inhumane regime that was simultaneously conducting horrible crimes.

Does that make sense?

No.

While the statement is technically true, it misses the entire scope, and that is what is wrong.
Basically, not all German pilots fired weapons, and not many of those where hard core Nazi, it was a mission they where ordered to do, like it or not.
You also need to consider other regimes that ordered their pilots to basically kill innocent civilians, even though they did want to.
I am not defending Nazis.

I could go on, but other have points as well.

[Auger73]

Originally Posted by Flying Pencil

No.

While the statement is technically true, it misses the entire scope, and that is what is wrong.
Basically, not all German pilots fired weapons, and not many of those where hard core Nazi, it was a mission they where ordered to do, like it or not.
You also need to consider other regimes that ordered their pilots to basically kill innocent civilians, even though they did want to.
I am not defending Nazis.

I could go on, but other have points as well.

I agree with you.

My grandfather (while not a combat pilot or Nazi) was a weapons inspector for the Luftwaffe. He did take planes up when there were reports of weapon malfunctions, to see if it really was just the product of fear in combat. After a few months in a Russian prisoner of war camp, he was released and later worked under NATO.

My dad, who was a kid during WWII in Germany, told me about a group of British fighters coming in at dawn on a Sunday morning and strafing a bunch of people in a cemetery attending a funeral.

I'll fly whatever aircraft I am interested in to fly, because this is a simulation, and not reality. When I play, I focus on situational awareness, and the mission at hand, not ideologies.

I want to have fun in a game, and not think about the many millions of people who lost their lives during WWII. If I want a more somber experience, I would visit a war memorial, or even a museum. The WWII memorial in Washington DC is quite remarkable.

[engarde]

Originally Posted by Avimimus

I don't really feel like discussing this. But, I'm deferring to the judgment of the community and posting the reply in this new thread.







The war shouldn't have happened. Following orders didn't help.

I recognise that the difference between one person fighting for their life and another isn't that great. Many people on the allied side were fighting for the wrong reasons as well (even though the side was the one that needed to win for humanity's sake).

But it doesn't change the fact that a lot of good people and innocents were killed by German pilots fighting the war. It also doesn't change the fact that they were fighting on behalf of a nation which had a horrible and inhumane regime that was simultaneously conducting horrible crimes.

Does that make sense?




I agree that Triggaaar is right that there were choices btw. Not easy ones though (especially for patriots or people who cared about what other's thought).

One can look at the treatment of draft dodgers or people who went AWOL in the past decade - in America - during wars of lower intensity, less ideology and less risk to the home country.

Ethics?

This is a useless topic as there is no way you can accurately determine what a totally different society, including the society of fighter pilots in a particular squadron etc, had as their values in days gone by.

Might as well post a question as to the Boer soldiers attitudes.

You'll get replies, but what worth opinion?

[WTE_Galway]

Originally Posted by engarde

Might as well post a question as to the Boer soldiers attitudes.

Believe it or not, the ethical issues surrounding the Boer War are STILL controversial and newsworthy 120 years later, especially in Australia ....



http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/nat...-1225950408570
http://www.smh.com.au/world/british-...112-17pqf.html
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...12/3065155.htm